Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[GUT]

If, despite the numerous shortcomings of the process, there really is evidence of Eddowes (Note, I don't say KATE Eddowes) family DNA on the shawl, and if that can be shown not to be modern contamination, then given the story of its link to Eddowes, then that is interesting.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Henry Flower]

Exactly my thoughts.

Agreed. And I think even THAT slimmed-down expectation is still quite a big IF.

[Observer]

Pick up a deerstalker hat and magnifying glass and go straight to Go

Go on Chris, I dare you. In fact I double dare you.

Personally Phil, I find this pretty tedious. I know it's tempting to get all silly on the forums. I even find myself succumbing on occasion.

But Mike Sutton is just a reader/reviewer. He may, or may not, know what he's talking about. He's apparently a Reader in Criminology at Nottingham Trent University, not necessarily an expert in DNA testing and analysis. So where's the peer review in that?

His Wikipedia entry has the following which may, or again, may not, have anything to do with him, but if was about me, I'd want to fix it.

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
This article needs attention from an expert on the subject. (August 2010)
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Another web site has this about him:

In 2014 Mike proved, using Big Data analysis and his own IDD research method, that Darwin and Wallace committed the greatest science fraud in history by plagiarizing the work of Patrick Matthew.

Mike also busted the Zombie Cop (100 yard) beat patrol myth. Mike bust the famous Spinach Myth, the Crime Opportunity Theory Myth, In 2013 the Moral Panic (Creation) Myth , the Founded Founding Fathers Myth (f) the Merton Myth and The Selfish Gene Myth. Mike Discovered that: True Origin of the Word Nerd was in 1799. He discovered the true origin of 'Humpty Dumpty' ). Mike bust the myth that Darwin coined the term 'living fossil'. He discovered the true origin of the word "quiz". He found the first publication of the word 'okay.' Mike discovered 'the whole nine yards' supermyth and discovered the originator of the name and concept of the Peace Corps.

http://www.bestthinking.com/thinkers/science/social_sciences/sociology/mike-sutton

If I could be bothered, I might follow up on the 'famous Spinach Myth', but frankly I doubt Sutton warrants it.

Finally, despite his criticisms of Edwards's book, he did say it was 'excellent' and gave it five stars.

Hahahaha. Good post Mick! That's what I call effective research. Any port in a storm for some of the poster's contributing to this thread I'd say. Considering your revelations regarding Mr Sutton I'd be loath to pull into that particular port though.

By the way, I'd imagine that the "famous spinach myth" entailed extensive research into the question of whether it really does stick between the teeth. Hope he carried out those tests under strict laboratory conditions though, and of course used the pre-eminent user of spinach as a guinea pig. Popeye The Sailor of course.

Regards

Observer

[Panderoona]

hi everyone.
Ive been looking into Amos Simpson (on another thread here) and having a subscription to a well known genealogy site, I used it to look him up. Well he was living in St Pancras in 1881, and by 1891 he was living in Cheshunt, Herts with his wife and two children in both instances. He also appears, from the Natonal Archives Met Police Pensions index to have retired 1892/3. Which doesnt get us any closer to knowing where he was in 1888.

BUT

Henry Joseph Simpson and Ellen Simpson children of Amos Simpson and Jane were both baptised at Cheshunt Herts on 19th June 1885

He was listed as being born 7.5.1877 and she 21.2.1881. Its not cast iron proof Amos had moved to Cheshunt by 1885 but I think its a massive pointer.
Note here his occupation in 1891 is still listed as Metropolitan Police Officer, but did he switch areas to work closer to home?

[Jeff Leahy]

To Jeff

But Macnaghten knew that Aaron Kosminski was not dead, and not incarcerated soon after the Kelly murder--and did not seem to think much of self-abuse leading to homicidal insanity.

How did he know the 'suspect' was still alive, and yet his superior and junior did not?

I have never seen an advocate of the Kosminski-as-Jack theory deal with this, respond to this, never. I presume because for certain people it is just infuriating that they did not notice it?

Hi Jonathon

Yes I agree the sources are often infuriating. And there could be any number of reasons why mistakes happened, given that MacNaughten was probably working from records and Swanson from memory given the nature of the marginalia. And the fact that McNaughten was clearly correct.

Of course we don't actually know when Swanson penned the Marginalia we only know it was penned by Swanson. And the end notes were made at a different time although the gap between is unknown.

But writing years later, saying shortly after could be a few months or a few years?

The only argument I've heard that might make the confusion is if Swanson for some reason believed Aaron died when he was infact transferred.

As McNaughten wrote his report on Cutbush before this date theres no reason both couldn't have thought Aaron alive in 1894

Yours Jeff

[Jonathan H]

Mac WAS there!

To Jeff

But Macnaghten may have written the unofficial version of his memo as late as 1898. Therefore he knew that Kosminski was still alive then, and Swanson and Anderson did not Their writings suggest that the Polish suspect was long, long deceased in the asylum).

Also, that Sims writing about the Polish suspect in 1907 implies he was still alive even then--and he was.

Also, Sims writing in 1910 implies that there was no Jewish help of the [un-named] Kosminski.

In 1914, in his memoirs, Macnaghten rejected the idea that there was a major, or any witness who had identified the Ripper.

And this is the most important aspect of all, Jeff.

Macnaghten was not relying on 'records'. This is because Aaron Kosminski was sectioned over eighteen months after Mac had started at the Met.

[John G]

Hi Mick

I spent some time going over aarons records with someone who worked in a Hospital in Essex with a large number of Schizophrenic Cases. He had no problem coming to the conclusion Aaron was suffering a form of Schizophrenia. He didn't go as far as using the term Hebophrenic.

But I'm satisfied we can conclude that that is what Aaron was suffering from given what is known.

What we need to do is balance Aarons known mental condition against the claims made by Swanson and Anderson.

I'm not just picking someone who suffered schizophrenia and saying he was Jack..

What I'm doing is looking at the claims made for Kosminski as a suspect. Then considering with what we know of his conditions could he have committed those crimes… And the answer to that is simply yes its possible.

We just don't know how severe his illness would have been on its onset. But in its early stages we know people suffering the condition can be quite lucid.

Personally I think we should at least given Anderson and Swanson more credit than they would believe Kosminski the Suspect purely because he masturbated.

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think it's worth pointing out that stranger homicides by individuals suffering from psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia, are incredibly rare and the victims are mainly adult men.

A Danish meta study concluded that there was an incidence rate of stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis of 1 per 14.3 million people per year and, as noted, the victims were chiefly adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). This is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

And a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia, over a 3 year period, only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

I think it's worth pointing out that stranger homicides by individuals suffering from psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia, are incredibly rare and the victims are mainly adult men.

A Danish meta study concluded that there was an incidence rate of stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis of 1 per 14.3 million people per year and, as noted, the victims were chiefly adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). This is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

And a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia, over a 3 year period, only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

But then you need to balance that against the rarity of Jack the Ripper style serial murders.. And they are almost non existent.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

To Jeff

But Macnaghten may have written the unofficial version of his memo as late as 1898. Therefore he knew that Kosminski was still alive then, and Swanson and Anderson did not Their writings suggest that the Polish suspect was long, long deceased in the asylum).

Also, that Sims writing about the Polish suspect in 1907 implies he was still alive even then--and he was.

Also, Sims writing in 1910 implies that there was no Jewish help of the [un-named] Kosminski.

In 1914, in his memoirs, Macnaghten rejected the idea that there was a major, or any witness who had identified the Ripper.

And this is the most important aspect of all, Jeff.

Macnaghten was not relying on 'records'. This is because Aaron Kosminski was sectioned over eighteen months after Mac had started at the Met.

Agreed Jonathon

But extensive research has taken place to find another Kosminski other than Aaron and non has been found.

And it seems more probable that McNaughtens report was penned and researched during the Cutbush happening. So its still more probable that Aaron had not yet been transferred when MacNaughten penned the report

Yours Jeff

[John G]

But then you need to balance that against the rarity of Jack the Ripper style serial murders.. And they are almost non existent.

Yours Jeff

Exactly. In fact, post 1888 I can think of only one British serial killer whose crimes even remotely resembled those of JTR: Anthony Hardy. That is why I would completely reject the approach that some posters seem to have taken, i.e Kosminski was suffering from psychosis and this makes him more likely to be JTR because, well, they're just the sought of crimes that psychotics commit. Whereas, as the statistics clearly indicate, psychotics are extremely unlikely to commit stranger homicides- even less so against women- let alone the type of savage, virtually unprecedented murders of JTR

Best wishes,

John

[Jeff Leahy]

Exactly. In fact, post 1888 I can think of only one British serial killer whose crimes even remotely resembled those of JTR: Anthony Hardy. That is why I would completely reject the approach that some posters seem to have taken, i.e Kosminski was suffering from psychosis and this makes him more likely to be JTR because, well, they're just the sought of crimes that psychotics commit. Whereas, as the statistics clearly indicate, psychotics are extremely unlikely to commit stranger homicides- even more so against women- let alone the type of savage, virtually unprecedented murders of JTR

Best wishes,

John

Or perhaps that police procedure developments changed rapidly after the Jack the Ripper murders… And Jack simply would have been detected quicker had he used the same MO even a few years after the murders?

There are all sorts of possibilities.

`Yours Jeff

[mickreed]

He was listed as being born 7.5.1877 and she 21.2.1881. Its not cast iron proof Amos had moved to Cheshunt by 1885 but I think its a massive pointer.
Note here his occupation in 1891 is still listed as Metropolitan Police Officer, but did he switch areas to work closer to home?

Giday mate.

Yes, I was aware of this, just hadn't got round to following it up. It certainly is interesting.

Well done.

[mickreed]

Hahahaha. Good post Mick!

Thanks Observer.

[lynn cates]

silly walks

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Must be serious to work for a government ministry. "Silly walks" if I recall?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"Oh,'e knew all the tricks."

Hello Mick.

"Sarcasm's only a problem when you're on the receiving end."

Or when it come from Doug Piranha.

Cheers.
LC