Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Andy Conway]

@mickread: Obviously it did get done - inside a very tight timeline. As I explained in my previous post above, I'm a rookie at this and I'm trying to understand the whole timing issue.

The precise kidney removal, claimed by Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown, is a big issue.

Did PC James Harvey actually walk down Church Passage and look into Mitre Square, or did he just give a perfunctory glance down Church Passage and continue on his beat. That could free up the timeline a little - but would of course be pure speculation on my part.

Enjoy reading your posts.

cheers, gryff

Yes, PC James Harvey did walk down Church Passage 'as far as Mitre Square' according to the statements.

The timeline document on this site states:

SUN, SEP 30, 1888 c.1:40am -- PC Harvey went down Duke St and into Church Passage as far as Mitre Sq. He did not look into the square and neither saw nor heard anything.

It's frustrating that he didn't look into the square, obviously, because it's highly likely he might have seen something in that dark south-west corner, where the Ripper had probably already murdered Catherine Eddowes and was in the process of mutilating her.

I'm not great at calculating distances, but is it about 30 feet?

The view from the top of the passage to the murder spot can be seen here in this photograph



which is from this page: http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...s.w-mitre.html

Eddowes and the Ripper would have been just in front of the man on the bench.

My guess is Jack would have heard PC Harvey coming and made his escape at this point, or stopped and waited till Harvey turned back and then scarpered, avoiding PC Watkins by 3-4 minutes.

[moonbegger]

Hi Moon,

When was this ?

MrB

Hello Mr B , well we know Joseph Lawende was there in 1888 , and a few doors down I have located Simpsons daughter Ellen in 1945 , making her 52 , and tying in the old Ex Policeman ..
Coincidence ?? maybe , but worth a closer look .

cheers

moonbegger

[Robert]

Moon, please go to Amos Simpson thread.

[moonbegger]

Cheers Robert .. on my way .

[Caligo Umbrator]

True enough. You say yourself, 'very rarely' homicidal. Thus, this certainly doesn't exclude anyone. Certainly not Kozminski. Rarely indeed. Yet, this did not stop the NYPD of compiling the following profile for the 'Son of Sam' killer: "......neurotic and probably suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and believed himself to be a victim of demonic possession."

After his arrest, David Berkowitz was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic who believed that his neigbor's howling dog was possessed by the devil and demanded that he go forth he kill.

Hi. Patrick,
Just to pick up on what you said Re. Son of Sams profile.
The N.Y. Police compiled that profile based largely on the contents of a lengthy letter that was left at one of the crime scenes by the killer a month or so before - rather than based purely upon the circumstances of the murders themselves.
So the fact that they were mostly correct is less surprising.
No criticism of you is implied here, I'm just clarifying the matter.
Caligo.

[Mabuse]

So, you think Kozminski was just some guy who liked to masterbate, huh?

There is no evidence to support Aaron Kosminsksi as a wanker at all! Likely, perhaps, but where is the evidence?

He probably had one off the wrist now and again. It is irrelevant to the Ripper mystery.

But we don't known why MacNaughton or Anderson believed him to be a compulsive masturbator...

Yes we do, my man, we've already explained why!

"Reduced to the level of a beast" and I don't think just saying it was prejudice is at all fair.

I feel like I am part of a Monty Python sketch, talking to this guy!

If Aaron Kosminski was reduced to the level of a beast by tossing himself off, then, frankly, I am Wolfman Jack.

What we know is what the sources tell us. That Aaron masturbated.

The sources contradict each other. They are Victorians who clearly believe mental health is associated with masturbation. This is not evidence. It is prudish hearsay.

Be more convincing!

[Varqm]

Nothing much has been said but what about the age of the cells/specimens.If those did not come from 1888 the whole argument stops.
What if the cells/specimens came from the 1900's?.
Those tests has to be published.The further away from 1888 the age of cells/specimens is the more the Edward's argument is dependent on the shawl story.
Hard but the people who owned and handled the shawl should also be known.

[Theagenes]

Nothing much has been said but what about the age of the cells/specimens.If those did not come from 1888 the whole argument stops.
What if the cells/specimens came from the 1900's?.
Those tests has to be published.The further away from 1888 the age of cells/specimens is the more the Edward's argument is dependent on the shawl story.
Hard but the people who owned and handled the shawl should also be known.

I don't believe you can date cells that way.

[paul g]

Yes, PC James Harvey did walk down Church Passage 'as far as Mitre Square' according to the statements.

The timeline document on this site states:

SUN, SEP 30, 1888 c.1:40am -- PC Harvey went down Duke St and into Church Passage as far as Mitre Sq. He did not look into the square and neither saw nor heard anything.

It's frustrating that he didn't look into the square, obviously, because it's highly likely he might have seen something in that dark south-west corner, where the Ripper had probably already murdered Catherine Eddowes and was in the process of mutilating her.

I'm not great at calculating distances, but is it about 30 feet?

The view from the top of the passage to the murder spot can be seen here in this photograph



which is from this page: http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...s.w-mitre.html

Eddowes and the Ripper would have been just in front of the man on the bench.

My guess is Jack would have heard PC Harvey coming and made his escape at this point, or stopped and waited till Harvey turned back and then scarpered, avoiding PC Watkins by 3-4 minutes.

If we can just locate the man on the bench then we probably have the best witness ever.

[Natasha]

If we can just locate the man on the bench then we probably have the best witness ever.

Well that would take alot of work, seeing as it is a woman

Well I think it is

[Fabio Sanvitale]

I'm absolutely agree with Trevor Marriott. I spoke, here in Italy, in the last days, with an important genetist and the best scene crime expert of our police.
The genetist said: ok, there's a link between Kosminski and Eddowes, but the only thing that genetic can't say is when this happened. The expert said: mitochondrial dna is not a definitive answer, but only a way to take in the number of suspects.
So, I think that now we know there was a contact between K. and E. ...but when? The day before? Half an hour before the murder? No more than this.
The Edward's book is not decisive.

[paul g]

Well that would take alot of work, seeing as it is a woman

Well I think it is

Accually on closer inspection I agree , or a cross dresser.

Can't make out if he/she is wearing a Michaelmas daisy shawl or not.

[curious4]

Just suppose

Don`t believe this for a moment but there is a small possibility that Amos turned up right after the body was discovered, picked up the shawl in shock, perhaps intending to cover the body, and then still in shock stuffed it in his pocket (silk being very lightweight) and forgot about it until he got home. He preferred to keep quiet about what he had done, for obvious reasons, and made up the story that he had been allowed to take it for the family, telling them to keep quiet about it.

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

A few things mentioned here I think are worthy of response. See above, bold.

G'day Patrick re post #3322 most people to have studied Berowitz appear to reach the conclusion that he was Faking it.

[Caligo Umbrator]

Accually on closer inspection I agree , or a cross dresser.

Can't make out if he/she is wearing a Michaelmas daisy shawl or not.

I think the shawls probably tucked away in that white carrier bag next to her, along with a couple of recently purchased JTR branded memento yoyos. So at least someones buying it . . . .