Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[John G]

Hello Mabuse.

"It's not up to observers to substantiate this claim about the shawl. It is up to Edwards to do so. He has failed to do so.

Others are perfectly within their rights to reject the claims as they stand, as per the standards of rational discourse and logic."

Very insightful. Finally, someone has read a logic text.

May your tribe increase.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm surprised you're so dismissive of the evidence! Seems a matter of closed to me. Well, apart from the tricky problem of the shawls total lack of provenance, meaning we have absolutely no idea when the genetic material was deposited...1866? 1927? 1974? 1888? Or where the shawl was when the DNA was deposited...North-West Iran? Georgia? Bolivia? Whitechapel? Or whether the DNA said to belong to Kosminski and Eddowes respectively was deposited on the shawl at the same time.

Of course, if it could be firmly established that the DNA was definitely Kosmisnki's and Eddowes, and arrived on the shawl simultaneously, that would be even more convincing. Well, apart from the fact that Aaron and Kate might have enjoyed a picnic together, one enchanting afternoon in the summer of 1888, using the shawl to sit on or to place the picnic on! Or perhaps as they lived in the same district their paths may have crossed at some point? No, that's obviously far too implausible...getting carried away again!

Apart from the aforementioned trivial caveats I would say it's a case of case closed!

[Gene Lewis]

Hi Gene,

No.

No.

No.

But I doubt this will end the thread.

Regards,

Simon

Alas,Simon, I think I share your view…
Regards

[Fisherman]

I read in rumbelows books that the mitre square murser might've been committed in the abandoned buildings connected to mitre square. Kate could've been drug outside after she was dead. The abandoned buildings where never searched by the police....perhaps the "shawl" was left inside at the crime scene.

No, Rocky, she was killed where she was found. There was not any blood trails or blood spots anywhere on the square but under the corpse. That makes for the inescapable conclusion that she was killed out in the square.

The best,
Fisherman

[pinkmoon]

Hi Lynn,

I'm surprised you're so dismissive of the evidence! Seems a matter of closed to me. Well, apart from the tricky problem of the shawls total lack of provenance, meaning we have absolutely no idea when the genetic material was deposited...1866? 1927? 1974? 1888? Or where the shawl was when the DNA was deposited...North-West Iran? Georgia? Bolivia? Whitechapel? Or whether the DNA said to belong to Kosminski and Eddowes respectively was deposited on the shawl at the same time.

Of course, if it could be firmly established that the DNA was definitely Kosmisnki's and Eddowes, and arrived on the shawl simultaneously, that would be even more convincing. Well, apart from the fact that Aaron and Kate might have enjoyed a picnic together, one enchanting afternoon in the summer of 1888, using the shawl to sit on or to place the picnic on! Or perhaps as they lived in the same district their paths may have crossed at some point? No, that's obviously far too implausible...getting carried away again!

Apart from the aforementioned trivial caveats I would say it's a case of case closed!

Place that shawl at the murder scene and I will paint myself pink and shout out "CASE CLOSED" untill then.......

[Henry Flower]

A quick message to all who are convinced this shawl story is genuine and its case closed.I would like to say if I ever received conclusive proof about my favourite suspect I would leave casebook I wouldn't argue with unbeilevers there is never any need to defend the truth .

Please quote one contributor who has stated they are convinced the shawl story is genuine and it's case closed.

[Harry D]

Please use better language than this please dosnt bother me but not all people are as thick skinned as me

Thick skinned? Right.

[pinkmoon]

Please quote one contributor who has stated they are convinced the shawl story is genuine and it's case closed.

.
Can I be frank and honest with you as there's nobody listening can I just say how absolutely appalled iam that this story has been given so much debate and taken seriously by so many people I would hate to use the word fraudulent so I wont.

[John G]

Place that shawl at the murder scene and I will paint myself pink and shout out "CASE CLOSED" untill then.......

Of course, the tricky issue of provenance could be largely overcome if it could be demonstrated how PC Amos Simpson- abandoning his beat in Islington and heading off, by foot, over a distance of a few miles, through the labyrinth that was London at the time to a district outside his jurisdiction- could have arrived at the crime scene in time to acquire the shawl? I mean, how did he or his superiors know that a murder had just taken place in an another jurisdiction? Oh wait a minute I know- he was obviously informed via his police issue 19th C radio or his personal mobile phone! Silly me for not considering this obvious possibility!

I think it is more likely that the first he heard about a murder in Mitre Square is when he read about in the newspaper!

[Hatchett]

Hi pinkmoon,

But I thought that Casebook was about debating and enriching everyone's understanding of the murders?

[John G]

Hi pinkmoon,

But I thought that Casebook was about debating and enriching everyone's understanding of the murders?

Hi Hatchett,

Despite my somewhat cynical earlier posts I would fully agree. It is only this debate that finally persuaded me to join the Casebook, even though I have been interested in Ripperology for at least 15 years and must have read countless books on the subject. Believe it or not, I even spent a few years viewing the Casebook without summoning the courage to register and take part in the debates! It's not a decision I regret- should have done it years ago!

Best wishes,

John

[Amanda]

Hear, hear..

Hi Hatchett,

Despite my somewhat cynical earlier posts I would fully agree. It is only this debate that finally persuaded me to join the Casebook, even though I have been interested in Ripperology for at least 15 years and must have read countless books on the subject. Believe it or not, I even spent a few years viewing the Casebook without summoning the courage to register and take part in the debates! It's not a decision I regret- should have done it years ago!

Best wishes,

John

Hi John,
Absolutely, I've been lurking in the background for the past 5 years & only felt the urge to join here last week.
This case has certainly caused a few heckles to rise but it's a really good debate.

I've learned so much in just the past 24 hours, from DNA to police beats, there are some fantastic posts on here & I feel really grateful that so many knowledgable Ripperologists are willing to share.

I for one have a lot to thank 'Shawlgate' for & will still be here for the next big debate, whether it be 'The Amos Files' the 'Colney Hatch Saga' or heaven forbid the 'Mary Kelly Tapes' !

Amanda

[mickreed]

Was it Brown who started the rumour of a surgeon being responsible? Five minutes at best for someone who knew exactly what they were doing.

Nick Warren in this TV documentary shows just how difficult it is to find and remove the kidney - from 9 mins in: http://youtu.be/4dQPAnRCI80 - and he says ten minutes.

Which is arguable, of course.

But Kosminski has no medical knowledge as far as I know and probably isn't a man who would know exactly what he was doing. (Neither is William Bury nor most of the usual suspects).

So presumably it would take a bit longer.

It's the time factor in Mitre Square that makes me look at a shawl with her blood and the killer's semen on it that makes me think 'Naaaaah.'

Well, I'm sure you're right about the 'Naaaaah'.

Browne at the inquest:

The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about. 


…

[Coroner] Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? - He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.

…

Coroner] Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane. 
[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up animals? - Yes. 
[Coroner] Have you been able to form any opinion as to whether the perpetrator of this act was disturbed? - I think he had sufficient time, but it was in all probability done in a hurry. 
[Coroner] How long would it take to make the wounds? - It might be done in five minutes. It might take him longer; but that is the least time it could be done in.

[mickreed]

That was quick!

Just had word from Jari Louhelainen, who kindly provided me with a link about eye-colour variations. Since it is a public link from the Daily Mail, I believe I can quote the part that specifically relates to our discussion:


Published June 9, 2014. Full link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2653300/Cant-hold-drink-cope-pain-Blame-colour-eyes.html

... and there we are!

All the best,
Fisherman

Hey Christer,

Thanks. I noticed this link on Jari's web site before the eye colour came up, but, foolishly, didn't follow it up.

Mmmm. As GUT says (paraphrased) the more we learn, the more we know we don't know)

[mickreed]

Does anyone know whether police officers were given a station reasonably near to where they lived? For instance, if, say, Amos was at his 1891 address in 1888, would this have meant that he worked at a station in the northern part of the area? I was wondering whether looking him up in the Middlesex electorals might be worthwhile.

The 1891 census has Amos and family in Cheshunt, Herts although he's still listed as a Met constable.

The only Amos I could find in the London rolls was in 1880 at Kings Cross. Admittedly this was only on the online ones, which may not be complete.

[Jeff Leahy]

OK I donut know if I've missed a response or Not

Somethreads get rather large and my apologies if i have done so…


Just a thought to ADMIN .. Is there not a way of giving posts a …well self regulated code… so instead of every post appeainging the same on a long tread.

THat each individual marks their comment as either.. Coment.. Fact or important comment?

That way those of us wishing to scroll through facts could do so or read the comments if they wish to do so..?

Just a thought and my apologies to anyone who has replied to my post and not gotten an answer

Hoping these thoughts help

Jef