MJK2/MJK3 Hand comparison

[richardh]

To obscure the same amount of 'thumb' as in MJK3 (for those who think it's a thumb) would mean the index finger comes to the fore and is then subject to the same vertical shadow the pinkie finger is?

Okay, this is what I have now...

[Debra A]

Okay, this is what I have now...

I think you have incorporated a bloodstain as part of the reconstruction-
Is the divide that high up?

[richardh]

I think you have incorporated a bloodstain as part of the reconstruction-
Is the divide that high up?

Yes, it is. Although I suspect my model's hand is slimmer and a bit longer in the fingers than MJK's. Also, this demonstrates how tricky it is to get a right hand in the left hand's position.

Here's v5 (which looks quite close to a fit IMO)

[Wickerman]

I appreciate you have not mentioned this yet, but the ulnar styloid is noticeably prominent in the left picture, as it should be for a left wrist.

To convert that view to represent a right wrist leaves the problem of what to do about the prominent ulnar, you can't shade it out.

If you interpret that little finger into a thumb, the high ulnar makes the wrist looked deformed to me.

[Debra A]

Yes, it is. Although I suspect my model's hand is slimmer and a bit longer in the fingers than MJK's. Also, this demonstrates how tricky it is to get a right hand in the left hand's position.

Here's v5 (which looks quite close to a fit IMO)

Nah. It's a superficial bloodstain. It really doesn't fit as a right hand thumb and you are just trying to impress Wickerman's wife.

[richardh]

Hence why I maintain that what we're looking at is a left hand. Although there is a radial styloid process which is less prominent then the ulna but which will be demonstrated on a wrist that is in a flexed position as this is.

I appreciate you have not mentioned this yet, but the ulnar styloid is noticeably prominent in the left picture, as it should be for a left wrist.

To convert that view to represent a right wrist leaves the problem of what to do about the prominent ulnar, you can't shade it out.

If you interpret that little finger into a thumb, the high ulnar makes the wrist looked deformed to me.

[richardh]

I just want to be loved

Nah. It's a superficial bloodstain. It really doesn't fit as a right hand thumb and you are just trying to impress Wickerman's wife.

[Daisyhall1]

How much do you want to bet that a certain 'someone' will not believe it?

I still think that the, "right hand on the far right side of the bed" issue is of more interest.
I don't think that was ever resolved.

The right hand image on the bottom right,possibly an assistant holding items in position,the blur to the left could be the left hand moving....?

[Wickerman]

The right hand image on the bottom right,possibly an assistant holding items in position,the blur to the left could be the left hand moving....?

You think the picture was not taken by a professional photographer?

(..get your hand out'a the picture Watkins before the damn flash......Aw-$hit! )

[Observer]

It is a bloodstain. The gap between the little finger, and third finger begins where the black triangular shape is situated.

[GUT]

You think the picture was not taken by a professional photographer?

(..get your hand out'a the picture Watkins before the damn flash......Aw-$hit! )

G'day Jon

Don't rule it out, I've seen pros do sillier things, like the one that shot an entire roll of film with a viewfinder camera with the lens cap on.

In fact I've managed a few bloopers myself, ie changing film and not adjusting the ASA/DIN/ISO [all three being different terms for the same thing].

[Wickerman]

Hence why I maintain that what we're looking at is a left hand. Although there is a radial styloid process which is less prominent then the ulna but which will be demonstrated on a wrist that is in a flexed position as this is.

Yes Richard, less prominent, a lower profile and more rounded, even when flexed. I can't see us substituting one for the other.

[Daisyhall1]

You think the picture was not taken by a professional photographer?

(..get your hand out'a the picture Watkins before the damn flash......Aw-$hit! )

Well without getting into the question of fake or not,I would consider it possible for more than one person to be involved.the hand(s) seem to be holding things in position.Assuming someone is stood up actually taking the photo,would the hand on screen not belong to someone else?

[Phil Carter]

Daisyhall1,

Good point- but thanks to GUT's excellent answers about the height and weight of known camera7 and tripods- we have to consider...
a- was the camera on a 1ft high forshortened tripod (questions height of camera over side of bed plus this is unknown and no evidence to suggest it)
b- was the camera placed on something (ditto above)
c- was the camera hand held (note weight and also angle of person taking it- also ditto above)
d- was photographer standing/bent standing/crouching in pool of blood (he wouldnt have and ditto above
e- was there an assistant present (ditto above)
f- was it the photographer's own right hand at bottom of photo steadying himself if bent/crouching whilst camera rested on something(ditto above)
Too many unknowms.
Plus it all comes down to opinion of the viewer of the picture as to whether the image we see is infact the same person or body we know of as MJK murdered in that room or not. Which goes back to questions of authenticity or not which goes back to provenance.
Nothing is a given here. We can presume and assume and guesstimate and compare to the best of our knowledge and skill in putting a case forward for everything with this photo- but the bottom line is that without certainty of anything-for or against-on any issue connected to this- we can only come down to individual opinion.
Therefore for MY OWN satisfaction only I have sent links to all SHOWN versions of MJK1 and MJK3 from these boards from various threads to three highly respected full time professional photographIc experts (one in England- one in USA and one in Australia) via lengthy emails respectfully asking them their views of said photograph and the problems attached- in NEUTRAL tone. I have also done the same with a computer photograph imagery expert in a world leading company in the USA whom I have known for over 30 years for evaluation of all MJK photos presented on these links-to determine their technical status and contacted a provenance issue expert explaining the problem as well.


Phil

[Wickerman]

G'day Jon

Don't rule it out, I've seen pros do sillier things, ....

I appreciate what you say GUT, but the "Anything is possible" file is fit to burst already.....

The Fringe element tend to promote whatever is possible, while the more conventional members prefer to look for what is likely.