Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff.

"Stride being out of Fanny's sight bleeding to death at 12.50 seems the most logical conclusion."

Precisely. Well done. Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

I dont know if its well done. But the question arises if Liz is alive and well during this period of time. Why does no one see her? Where was she?

With a client inside Dutfield yard? In the print shop?

I mean if she's not there on the floor bleeding to death, then she must have been doing something else but she is not seen by Goldstein or Mortimer.

If shes hiding inside Dutfeild gate way, why doesn't she proposition Goldstein?

I think we are agreed Because its hard to envissage another sanario that fits the known facts

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn and Jeff,

Lynn, you are right that it is misleading to refer to "the police." I think we have all been guilty of that at some point. However, I don't think that Swanson just pulled the possibility of another killer out of a hat. Isn't it reasonable to assume that this would have been the result of discussing it with Abberline and maybe others?

Hello Jeff,

Swanson would have been using the same witness times and statements as we have available to us (or so I assume). So when he mentions the possibility of another killer it is not in the same vein as in all things are possible, it is because he believed that there was a reasonable degree of probability that this could have been the case.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Lynn and Jeff,
Hello Jeff,

Swanson would have been using the same witness times and statements as we have available to us (or so I assume). So when he mentions the possibility of another killer it is not in the same vein as in all things are possible, it is because he believed that there was a reasonable degree of probability that this could have been the case.

c.d.

I think we can assume Swanson had better information than us. He would have had the original Schwartz report for a start. In fact Swanson would have had access to more information than anyone involved in the case reporting to Anderson.

What I'm questioning is if we believe Schwartz timings, having been attacked by BSM she would have only have had a window of 2-3 possible minutes before FAnny is stood at her door. She's not seen by Fanny.

Then we have a second small window of time when Fanny goes inside and shortly hears the approaching Horse and cart.

So even if Swanson considers the possibility he clearly must have also considered the fact that Scwartz may have witnessed the murder.

I've personally always thought the Marginalia supports that belief.

Swanson must have been aware Kosminski had once lived at Dutfeild yard and lived only just around the corner with his brother. If Swanson was indeed aware of this, then he was considering the Stride murder rather than the Jack the Ripper murders as a whole.

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

Goldstein

Hello Jeff. Thanks. Your question about Goldstein is quite astute. IF she was propositioning men, and IF BSM had already left, they why not proposition him?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

minds at work

Hello CD. Thanks.

"However, I don't think that Swanson just pulled the possibility of another killer out of a hat. Isn't it reasonable to assume that this would have been the result of discussing it with Abberline and maybe others?"

I think it MOST likely that he--like Sir Charles, Wynne Baxter, and others--was thinking about the case and asking himself questions.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer he is not taking the times stated as being written in stone. Obviously there is enough doubt in his mind that he feels someone other than the B.S. man could have been the killer. He is not stating this as a metaphysical possibility as in anything is possible. Otherwise every police report would run thousands of pages listing all things possible. He is stating that there is enough doubt regarding times and statements that there is a real probability of another killer.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer he is not taking the times stated as being written in stone. Obviously there is enough doubt in his mind that he feels someone other than the B.S. man could have been the killer. He is not stating this as a metaphysical possibility as in anything is possible. Otherwise every police report would run thousands of pages listing all things possible. He is stating that there is enough doubt regarding times and statements that there is a real probability of another killer.

c.d.

In my opinion Swanson simply investigated all the possibilities.

If the Marginalia is to be believed then clearly he thought Jack the Ripper had been positively ID'd at the Seaside Home.

Yet Swanson continued to consider further possible Victims and Suspects for the crime as far as 1894-5.

So we have a president of Swanson considering all the angles, as it was his job to do so. Even when he was personally satisfied the case was solved.

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

I am talking about his report on the Stride murder not the marginalia. Why list a possibility if you don't think it is probable?

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

I am talking about his report on the Stride murder not the marginalia. Why list a possibility if you don't think it is probable?

c.d.

Yes but he also gives considerable space to the events witnessed by Schwartz. He must surely have thought these significant even though Schwartz was note called to give evidence.

Given what he later states in the Marginalia it at least seems possible that he considered Schwartz a significant witness.

After all he would have known where the suspect, he was investigating, lived. Swanson was thus aware of Kosminski's connection to the Stride murder scene..and the vacinity of Berner Street

Surely significant?

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

We seem to be going in circles here. Obviously he considered the B.S. man the prime suspect. But since he allows for the possibility of another killer he is stating that there is a reasonable chance somebody other than the B.S. man was her killer. So to conclude that the B.S. man HAD to be her killer doesn't jive with with Swanson's report. That's all I am saying.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

We seem to be going in circles here. Obviously he considered the B.S. man the prime suspect. But since he allows for the possibility of another killer he is stating that there is a reasonable chance somebody other than the B.S. man was her killer. So to conclude that the B.S. man HAD to be her killer doesn't jive with with Swanson's report. That's all I am saying.

c.d.

Ah yes. So many ripperology puzzles tend to be so, circular that is.

But my opinion is that Swanson believed Schwartz probably witnessed something significant. But at this time he was keeping all possibilities open.

ANd thats what I believe happened later on in 1894-5

But as I say its simply opinion. Could someone else have killed Stride, its not impossible I just think it unlikely given what we know.

But thats Ripperology. Happy Easter

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

...and Happy Easter to you too, Jeff.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Dimshits

Hello CD.

"Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer he is not taking the times stated as being written in stone."

He seems to be thinking that Liz was killed around 1.00--just about when Dimshits arrived.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thorough

Hello (again) CD.

"Why list a possibility if you don't think it is probable?"

My son just got a diagnosis on an engine light on his car. Listed: one probability along with four possibilities.

It's being thorough.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer he is not taking the times stated as being written in stone."

He seems to be thinking that Liz was killed around 1.00--just about when Dimshits arrived.

Cheers.
LC

...and we know this how?

c.d.