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Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

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  • The idea of killing someone in a narrow court yard, with occupied dwellings on one side and a crowded club room on the other, within full view of a public street only a few feet away, would seem more the impulsive act of a beginner than the work of an experienced serial killer. Still, our Jackie seemed quite content with taking his fun where he found it, however risky it might be.

    With one exception, all Ripper murders were committed in public places, in areas where the risk of discovery "in the act" was fairly high. For example:

    Tabram: Stairway landing, inside occupied apartment building.

    Nichols: Public street in front of occupied dwelling.

    Chapman: Back yard at rear of occupied dwelling.

    Stride: Side yard off public street, next to occupied buildings.

    Eddowes: Public square, next to occupied dwellings.

    At any of these sites, someone could easily have stepped onto the street, looked out the window, came down the stairs, opened the door, or turned the corner (as PC Watkins did at Mitre Square), surprising the killer. And yet, in each case he managed to do his thing and disappear without a trace.

    The lone exception, Kelly, was murdered inside her rented room, behind a locked door. The room, however, was located in an occupied dwelling, directly beneath another tenant's room and a few feet from another occupied dwelling off the same entry way - so still a bit risky for Jack, especially considering the increased numbers of police and frightened women in the area.

    I offer this only to suggest that while Stride's murder may fit someone's idea of a non-Ripper killing, the murder site does comply with Jack's usual work environment, with perhaps a little more risk involved. And for what it's worth, if Stride was a Ripper victim, I believe he came along after BS Man left, talked her into the yard and killed her - probably all in a matter of 5-7 minutes.

    John
    "We reach. We grasp. And what is left at the end? A shadow."
    Sherlock Holmes, The Retired Colourman

    Comment


    • IF Jack committed all these murders one thing we know is that acting where he could be seen was not a concern for him.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dr. John Watson View Post
        I offer this only to suggest that while Stride's murder may fit someone's idea of a non-Ripper killing, the murder site does comply with Jack's usual work environment, with perhaps a little more risk involved. And for what it's worth, if Stride was a Ripper victim, I believe he came along after BS Man left, talked her into the yard and killed her - probably all in a matter of 5-7 minutes.

        John
        Some astute observations with regard to locations, yet in all the other instances the killer did not allow himself to be seen assaulting his victim.
        So yes, I agree, that if Stride was a Ripper victim, BS-man was not her killer.

        Options are few for a likely perpetrator. If the story given by Schwartz is correct and "Pipeman" took off behind Schwartz then he was likely not her killer either.
        We are left with two other possibilities:
        1 - Another person approached her from the street and killed her swiftly or,
        2 - Her killer was already in Dutfields Yard with her, unseen by Schwartz.

        Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • G'day Jon

          We are left with two other possibilities:
          1 - Another person approached her from the street and killed her swiftly or,
          2 - Her killer was already in Dutfields Yard with her, unseen by Schwartz.

          I have no problems with that idea, in fact I personally think that is what happened.


          Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?
          That is a good question.
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • no place like it

            Hello Jon.

            "Less than 30 minutes previous Stride had been seen on the street with "Parcel-man", where did he go?"

            Home, perhaps?

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • I've got one.

              Let's say "JTR" was leading Stride into the Dutfields. BSM saw them and he accosted Stride for being about to do the business or whatever his problem was. Jack remains in the darkness of the yard whilst BSM pushes her about and Schwartz passes and etc. He then seizes the opportunity afforded him to kill her while she is distracted from being attacked. He doesn't mutilate because of the ruckus that had just occured and lingering is too risky. He doesn't leave her alive because it is good policy. One less person, if not the only one, who could put you there at that time. Does that satiate everyone? Ha ha ha.
              Valour pleases Crom.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
                I don't get the relevance Jeff , how would that make him less cautious as to who was over his shoulder , or who was loitering in his kill zone ?

                moonbegger
                Hi Moonbegger

                I was suggesting that the location used by Stride was more personal to the killer, as its my personal opinion that Jck lived in Dutfeild Yard as a child and was living only yards away around the corner at the time of the murder. But thats just personal opinion.

                But on your wider point, I certainly agree that the attack witnessed by schwartz was different to the other murders, in that the killer met his victims at a different location and they took him somewhere quiet.

                In my opinion the only other different attack was Nichols. I beleive she expected the gates at Bucks Row to be open and when they were NOT she was struck suddenly and with violence (Hence the whispering reported by Harriot Lilly)

                But on an even more Macro point, I'm not certain we should expect serial killers to use the exact same MO all the time. All of Jacks crimes show variation and thats what we should expect.

                Its an idea that became unpolular in Ripperology, I beleive, largely because of Patricia Corwall's clumsy use of tying up any murder she could find with Walter Sickert.

                However I've spent some time researching a serial killer called Harold Jones. He killed two girls in wales 1921. Released from prison 1941.

                The year before Harold killed the two girls in 1920. A woman who's house backed into the same ally as Jones, in the same small Welsh village was attacked from behind and stabbed. She didn't she her assailent, but author Neil Melkin makes the case that even though the MO is totally different to the tow girls murder (Who were strangled) It must have been Jones who did the attack using a very different MO.

                As the Village was so small and schizophrenic Psycopaths so rare. I'm fast coming around to the possibility that such killers can vary their MO considerably

                Trust that clarifys a little

                Off to see Wedding Present at a record stall in Cardiff

                Jeff

                Comment


                • Even if we set aside the question of Schwartz's veracity, we still don't know whether he witnessed an "attack." That seems to be the term that we have assigned to it. We also don't know the intention of the B.S. man. Was it to hurt Liz or did he simply want her to move from her location? Did he really push her or did she fall? Could he have suddenly let go while pulling her which led to her fall? I think we tend to view what happened in the worst possible light. And that might not necessarily be correct.

                  Food for thought.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • Hello Jeff ,
                    I was suggesting that the location used by Stride was more personal to the killer, as its my personal opinion that Jck lived in Dutfeild Yard as a child and was living only yards away around the corner at the time of the murder. But thats just personal opinion.
                    Thanks for the clarification Jeff .. But why this site in particular ? could not all of the murder locals be attributed in some way or another to particular memory's contained within the killers past ? I do understand that this was more than likely the killers choice of local , as opposed to being led to it , but all said and done , we really have no idea exactly how much input the killer had , regarding other locations .

                    In my opinion the only other different attack was Nichols. I beleive she expected the gates at Bucks Row to be open and when they were NOT she was struck suddenly and with violence (Hence the whispering reported by Harriot Lilly)
                    I have often wondered about the stable gates at Browns yard , but I have never been able to find any evidence that they were ever open at night, or even used by prostitutes for that matter . As for the whispering heard by Lilly , I am firmly of the opinion that the voices she heard was that of Paul and CrossMere , who had missed the killer by seconds ( maybe even disturbed him ) but that is another thread altogether ..

                    And on one final note ..

                    "Unidentified murders in London are rare and the Jack the ripper crimes are not within that catigory"
                    Seeing as the Ripper murders gave birth to the phrase "serial Killer" could this quote also imply "Unidentified serial killings in London are rare and the Jack the ripper crimes are not within that catigory"

                    cheers

                    moonbegger .

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
                      Hello Jeff ,
                      I have often wondered about the stable gates at Browns yard , but I have never been able to find any evidence that they were ever open at night, or even used by prostitutes for that matter . As for the whispering heard by Lilly , I am firmly of the opinion that the voices she heard was that of Paul and CrossMere , who had missed the killer by seconds ( maybe even disturbed him ) but that is another thread altogether ..
                      If nichols was taking a client to a dark secluded spot, I've always thought that she expected the gate to be open but it was closed. But Like you have nothing to substanciate the idea.

                      Theres also been some debate about the street lamp opposite, whether it was opposite and how much light was available. But I've always considered this spot Not very dark. Especially when considering more secluded spots the other side of the board school.

                      Originally posted by moonbegger View Post
                      Seeing as the Ripper murders gave birth to the phrase "serial Killer" could this quote also imply "Unidentified serial killings in London are rare and the Jack the ripper crimes are not within that catigory"

                      cheers moonbegger .
                      I've always interpreted it as Meaning Anderson believed the police new or he believed they knew, the identity of Jack the Ripper

                      Yours Jeff

                      Comment


                      • neglect

                        Hello DLDW. And so he just stands there whilst this is occurring?

                        And BSM leaves right after Schwartz and PM, Liz ignores her "client," retrieves her cachous from a pocket, and THEN he strikes. perhaps he felt neglected?

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • go away

                          Hello CD. IF one accepts Israel's story, it looks initially like he wishes her to move. Which makes little sense--unless he knew her OR was a clubman who wished her not to obstruct the path.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • early

                            Hello MB. Not wishing to drift off topic, but weren't those whispers heard around 3.30? If so, perhaps a bit early for Cross and Paul?

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                              Hello CD. IF one accepts Israel's story, it looks initially like he wishes her to move. Which makes little sense--unless he knew her OR was a clubman who wished her not to obstruct the path.

                              Cheers.
                              LC
                              Hello Lynn,

                              Or it could also be interpreted that he wanted her to go with him. Either way it could imply a motive other than wanting to do her bodily harm.

                              c.d.

                              Comment


                              • no sense

                                Hello CD. Thanks.

                                Indeed. And it makes no sense that he wanted to harm her if he had just met her for the first time.

                                Cheers.
                                LC

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