Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Catherine Eddowes: A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match - by Archaic 3 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Capturing Jack the Ripper - N. R. A. Bell - by Archaic 3 hours ago.
Shades of Whitechapel: Centenaries - whole and half - by Ginger 3 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: What is the worst Ripper book you've ever read? - by Henry Flower 5 hours ago.
Catherine Eddowes: A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match - by Chris 5 hours ago.
Catherine Eddowes: A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match - by pinkmoon 6 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Suspect Discussion: Suspect battle: Cross/Lechmere vs. Hutchinson - (32 posts)
Catherine Eddowes: A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match - (21 posts)
Non-Fiction: Capturing Jack the Ripper - N. R. A. Bell - (7 posts)
General Discussion: Pet theories - (3 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Berner Street help - (3 posts)
General Victim Discussion: The London City Missionary in Whitechapel - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Oct 25, 2014, 5:40 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm
Donald Swanson
Edit: Chris
Dec 9, 2012, 3:40 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.
Mike Covell: A Study in Red – The Secret Journal of Jack the Ripper
March 3, 2014, 3:42 am.
Mike Covell: Almost there….
January 24, 2014, 4:05 am.
Mike Covell: Jack the Ripper - Year in Review 2013
December 28, 2013, 7:31 am.
Mike Covell: Jack the Ripper At Last? - Review
December 9, 2013, 2:08 am.
Mike Covell: From Whitechapel to Whitefriargate
November 27, 2013, 4:15 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #161  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:37 AM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,068
Default

Anyone else wonder why a PC was carrying a pen? I mean, Detectives totally need a pen... but for the guy who walks a beat and occasionally runs while shouting at someone, a fountain pen seems a bit of an extravagance. I would have assumed a scrap of pencil.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:00 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Somerset
Posts: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Anyone else wonder why a PC was carrying a pen? I mean, Detectives totally need a pen... but for the guy who walks a beat and occasionally runs while shouting at someone, a fountain pen seems a bit of an extravagance. I would have assumed a scrap of pencil.
I agree.

Although I don't know for a fact I am sure a pencil would have been a standard issue before the invention of ballpoint pens.





Also the style of the hand doesn't exactly look like something which has been jotted on a notepad.

I wonder what happened to the originals?

Last edited by galexander : 04-24-2012 at 10:05 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:12 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Somerset
Posts: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Russell View Post
For what it's worth, this is an observation I made in 2010:

Apologies if this has been pointed out before.

In my view, DC Halse's rendering of the graffito should be seen as more reliable than that of Long. Firstly as, according to this site, Long's original spelling of "Jewes" was corrected to "Juwes" and secondly as Halse has used inverted commas to denote 'new paragraph but still part of the quotation'. Thus he has been careful to record the message line by line. This being the case, I believe we should trust him as to exact wording and spelling.

Best wishes,
Steve.

However, the Met copy as posted by Chris G. (which I now believe to be in Sir Charles Warren's hand) agrees with Long. Confusing.

S.
Steven Russell makes a very good point that many of us may have missed.

According to the punctuation offered by Halse the message may have taken the following form on the wall:


The Juwes are
not the men that will be blamed for
nothing



This is from the following:


Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:27 PM
miss marple miss marple is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 492
Default

Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:48 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bottesford, Leicestershire
Posts: 2,885
Default Pens

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple
The same was true at the school I attended. I got into trouble for taking a ballpoint to school, even though I had told my father (probably at the last minute!) that it had to be a fountain pen. When I joined the police the use of a pencil in your pocket book was an absolute no-no; you could be accused of rubbing something out! I, too, see nothing unusual in a Pc having a pen.

Regards, Bridewell.
__________________
Regards, Bridewell.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:04 PM
Rubyretro Rubyretro is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sussex, England
Posts: 1,911
Default

Quote:
PS.: Who's next as a JTR suspect? Degas, Manet? :-)
[/quote]

c'mon Maria...MJK was a bit of a Picasso job...
__________________
http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:02 PM
galexander galexander is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Somerset
Posts: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple
Because ink tends to smudge without blotting paper making a bit of a mess.

What exactly have you got against pencils anyway........?

Can some historian please help out here? Did Victorian PC's use pencils or fountain pens when taking notes?

According "Answers" Victorian schoolchildren did not use fountain pens but used slates. Does this answer your question?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:11 PM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,068
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
Why would 'not a PC have a fountain pen? Victorians were taught to write forming individual letters using pens, every desk had inkwells.Pens were standard writing instruments. The fountain pen was patented by Waterman's in 1884 but Parker had invented one in the 1830s which was not so reliable.
Perhaps it was a present on becoming a police officer.
When I was at school in 1960s you had to write with a fountain pen,no biros, pencils or other signs of decadence, sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking!

Miss Marple
It's not like I don't think they wouldn't have had access or anything, I just think it's a bit impractical for a guy who walks a beat. I mean, they were pretty big, they leaked, they were tough to refill, they sputtered when writing at a weird angle... None of which is a problem for a guy at a desk, but it all would be a problem for a guy trying to take notes while standing in the freezing rain. I mean, they couldn't take spare ink with them and an eyedropper to refill the pen in some alley while taking a statement from someone. Fountain pens just weren't as portable as they would appear to be at first glance. For a cop who walks a beat, it would be a colossal nuisance.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:41 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bottesford, Leicestershire
Posts: 2,885
Default

Hi Errata,

I'll back-track a little on what I said earlier. I don't think it strange that a Pc carried a pen but, yes, it probably was unusual to use one on the street. I suspect that, in the LVP pocket book entries were made in pencil, for the reasons of practicality which you point out. Do we know that Pc Long's note was written in ink? Might it have been in dark pencil?

Regards, Bridewell.
__________________
Regards, Bridewell.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:22 PM
Robert Robert is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,381
Default

Looking at worst case scenarios, I should think they carried a small knife or some other instrument which could act as a pencil sharpener. I can guarantee that if I'd been on the beat in 1888, my pencil would have broken.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.