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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

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  #41  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:25 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Mac.

"Anderson's comment: "if we had the powers of the French police we would have caught/convicted him" (or something to that effect), has always intrigued me.

What did he mean?"

My interpretation is not flattering. I think Sir Robert is trying to jack up (no pun intended) a case fraught with lack of evidence and to make it look like he was on top of things.

Cheers.
LC
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  #42  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Errata Errata is offline
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I always thought it was odd that personal notes were composed in a way that had a dramatic reveal at the end. He writes "the suspect" several times, and at the end announces "The suspect was Kosminski". That's just peculiar. It should read

"...because Kosminski was also a Jew and also because his evidence would convict Kosminski, and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind...And after this identification which Kosminski knew of, no other murder of this kind took place in London...after Kosminski had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with great difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified. On Kosminski's return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time Kosminski with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards- DSS"

At least that would be the most natural ordering of thoughts.
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  #43  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:15 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default marginal afterthought

Hello Errata. Precisely! As written, it sounds like an afterthought.

Cheers.
LC
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  #44  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:32 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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Actually it sounds a lot like the preface to a book. Which would make sense if it was in his own book, or was written in the margins of a manuscript someone had asked him to write a preface...

It's just odd composition. Like the first part and that last "The suspect was Kosminski" was added later.
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  #45  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:48 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booth View Post
Thank you Lynn and Jon, much appreciated.



Jon, therein lies the mystery, and what a tantalising and frustrating mystery it is! The simple truth is, we don't know. The facts, as they are, suggest not. I don't count myself as an expert at all, and a lot of far more capable researchers have investigated this matter and presented information that does not support Aaron as the suspect. Was it one of the other brothers mentioned? Was there another Kosminski, whose identity has so far eluded us as far as the hospital records are concerned? Unlikely, but not impossible.

As far as my personal opinion is concerned, I am not entirely comfortable with the Kosminski ID situation as it stands, as Aaron has been put forward by many as the Kosminski that Swanson was talking about. However, referring back to the original question that started this post, I still think that an ID took place, and that as far as Swanson was concerned a Kosminski was identified at that ID.

If you don't mind, can we take another look at what Swanson wrote please?




Now when I read this first, and subsequent times since, I always read it as Swanson "clearing his mind" of what he knew. Whether he wrote it for anyone else to read after is open to opinion. I always regard it as this (please allow me to indulge in a lot of speculation for this!):

Swanson has a copy of Anderson's book and has read the passages about the Whitechapel Murders, and has needed to set a few things straight for his own personal satisfaction. The way he writes it, it doesn't make sense straight away. There are no references to documents that would prove any of it, there are no dates, names or even a great amount of detail that pads it out. It still strikes me as someone writing down what he knows to expand on Anderson's statements, not for any personal gain as far as I can tell, apart from perhaps setting things straight in his own mind. The fact that he names a Kosminski at the end strikes me as a personal admission - This is what I know, this is the man we caught, this is how we caught him,this is his name and to be honest, if I was Swanson, I probably would not be happy with the outcome of the investigation, and the fact they didn't get a concrete conviction in a court of law, so that is why he specifies at the start the whole "witness refusing to testify" part of the story. What he writes here is very specific and detailed compared with the rest of the marginalia. I always read that part as pretty much "look we had him, but our witness wouldn't let us hang him, so we had to take care of it another way".

I hope this has made sense, I've had it all rattling around in my brain for a long time! A lot of speculation, a lot of personal opinion, I know. The thing is, until something else comes along, it maybe that the Swanson marginalia is perhaps the closest we'll ever get to what people have been looking for all these years.

Who was Jack the Ripper? We don't know. Was it Aaron Kosminski? Probably not. Was a Kosminski ID'd by the police? Yes, I think so. Swanson certainly thought so. We just have to find out who exactly he was.......I don't think we know yet.

best wishes, Rich
Hi Booth
Good posts.

"Kosminski was the suspect"

Boom. To me this statement seals it. he was a suspect only, probably a strong one in Swanson's mind, but at the end of the day just a suspect.
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  #46  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:13 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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"...David was the suspect." -DSS
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  #47  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:35 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Booth
Good posts.

"Kosminski was the suspect"

Boom. To me this statement seals it. he was a suspect only, probably a strong one in Swanson's mind, but at the end of the day just a suspect.
Yes but this makes it sound as if it seals the deal. But we are talking about some private annotations made in Swanson's copy of his boss's book. It by no means implies that it was a "strong" suspect in Swanson's mind. We just don't know that. All we know is that Swanson was making a notation, for his own information, to give the name to the suspect that Anderson had not named in the printed text of his book. It might seem to be a strong endorsement of the statement Anderson was making but might not be at all. It merely provides some verification of Anderson's story and tells us who was meant -- "Kosminski", presumably meaning Aaron Kosminski.

Best regards

Chris
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  #48  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:44 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Hello Mac.

"Anderson's comment: "if we had the powers of the French police we would have caught/convicted him" (or something to that effect), has always intrigued me.

What did he mean?"

My interpretation is not flattering. I think Sir Robert is trying to jack up (no pun intended) a case fraught with lack of evidence and to make it look like he was on top of things.

Cheers.
LC
Hello Lynn

The passage that you are thinking of is the following one in Anderson's autobiography, The Lighter Side of My Official Life:

"And if the Police here had powers such as the French Police possess, the murderer would have been brought to justice."

I would agree with your interpretation. It's another statement that papers over the inadequacies of Scotland Yard's investigation. "We would have had him if only. . . ."

Best regards

Chris
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  #49  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:12 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
Yes but this makes it sound as if it seals the deal. But we are talking about some private annotations made in Swanson's copy of his boss's book. It by no means implies that it was a "strong" suspect in Swanson's mind. We just don't know that. All we know is that Swanson was making a notation, for his own information, to give the name to the suspect that Anderson had not named in the printed text of his book. It might seem to be a strong endorsement of the statement Anderson was making but might not be at all. It merely provides some verification of Anderson's story and tells us who was meant -- "Kosminski", presumably meaning Aaron Kosminski.

Best regards

Chris
Hi Chris

I was specifically responding to Booth's post in which he wrote this:

The fact that he names a Kosminski at the end strikes me as a personal admission - This is what I know, this is the man we caught, this is how we caught him,this is his name and to be honest, if I was Swanson, I probably would not be happy with the outcome of the investigation, and the fact they didn't get a concrete conviction in a court of law, so that is why he specifies at the start the whole "witness refusing to testify" part of the story. What he writes here is very specific and detailed compared with the rest of the marginalia. I always read that part as pretty much "look we had him, but our witness wouldn't let us hang him, so we had to take care of it another way".

I read this as Booths interpretation of Swansons marginalia as being along the line of Anderson's "definitely ascertained fact" that is- Swanson also thought they had there man-case solved.

My response was merely to say it does not appear swanson was going that far.

Your interpretation seems not to go far enough.

All we know is that Swanson was making a notation, for his own information, to give the name to the suspect that Anderson had not named in the printed text of his book. It might seem to be a strong endorsement of the statement Anderson was making but might not be at all. It merely provides some verification of Anderson's story and tells us who was meant -- "Kosminski", presumably meaning Aaron Kosminski.

"...and he knew he was identified"
"..no other murder took place.."

IMHO seems to indicate more than just "some verification of Anderson's story and tells us who was meant -- "Kosminski",
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  #50  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:52 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Chris. Thanks for that.

Did you, perchance, catch Christy Campbell's cute assessment of Sir Robert?

"But for once, he was telling the truth."

Cheers.
LC
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