Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
General Suspect Discussion: Who really witnessed Jack the Ripper? - by John G 7 minutes ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - by Jeff Leahy 12 minutes ago.
General Police Discussion: PC Amos Simpson - by MrBarnett 14 minutes ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - by Jeff Leahy 15 minutes ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - by John G 28 minutes ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - by Jonathan H 32 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Kosminski, Aaron: Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl - (148 posts)
General Police Discussion: PC Amos Simpson - (33 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look? - (24 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Who really witnessed Jack the Ripper? - (23 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: Berner St. 1909 Sun/Shadow Study - (8 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Ideas to explain the ferocity of MJK's murder - (6 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Mar 6, 2014, 11:56 pm
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm
Donald Swanson
Edit: Chris
Dec 9, 2012, 3:40 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.
Mike Covell: A Study in Red – The Secret Journal of Jack the Ripper
March 3, 2014, 3:42 am.
Mike Covell: Almost there….
January 24, 2014, 4:05 am.
Mike Covell: Jack the Ripper - Year in Review 2013
December 28, 2013, 7:31 am.
Mike Covell: Jack the Ripper At Last? - Review
December 9, 2013, 2:08 am.
Mike Covell: From Whitechapel to Whitefriargate
November 27, 2013, 4:15 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #71  
Old 03-25-2012, 01:09 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 1,859
Default

You're a braver man than me, Gunga Din.

No alternative, hey?

Consider that before 1987, we would also throw out that Swanson ever thought 'Kosminski' was the fiend, or at least that he thought that the fiend was 'deceased' because the same 'Pall Mall Gazette' of 1895 was the only source to claim this about this significant police figure -- until his own Marginalia turned up.

I disagree, too, that Lawende was entirely 'quite forgotten'.

Macnaghten remembered him, all too well, artfully altering the story by pulling inside-out the ethnicity of witness and suspect.

It sure fooled Griffiths and Sims, and arguably set in motion the idea that somebody had seen 'Kosminski' at the scene of a Whitechapel murder.

I also subscribe to the Evans-Rumbelow theory of a fading, though sincere memory re-casting the Lawende-Sadler 'confrontation' to become the mythical one between the Polish Jewish suspect and a treacherous Jewish witness -- unnamed (poor co-operative Lawende).
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-25-2012, 03:10 PM
DVV DVV is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: To the right of President Sunday
Posts: 5,926
Default

I cannot disagree more.
How do you explain Kebbell's silence on the suject ?
Why no reference in other press records ?
In police recollections ?
In police theories, opinions, interviews.

And yes, I'm braver than you, figure d'anchois.
__________________
"Hence he assumes a knowing air..."
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:28 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bottesford, Leicestershire
Posts: 2,855
Default Up To A Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post

That's what broadly means. Not exact, but generally the same.

Fair comment

What is tall? Everybody is tall to a person who is not.

To a person of average height, some people are tall some short. Schwartz, though, according to Swanson, did not describe Pipeman as "tall". He said he was 5' 11".

The point is so-called 'Knifeman' is carrying a knife, is lithe, Gentile-featured and attired as a proletarian.


He's more usually known as 'Pipeman' because he was lighting his pipe. The allusion to a knife was introduced in the account given by The Star newspaper, a secondary source at best. Where is this individual described as "lithe, "Gentile-featured and attired as a proletarian"? I can't find it. All I can find is Swanson's report, written on 19th October:

"Second man, age 35, height 5ft. 11in., complexion fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand"

& The Star's report:

"He described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat.

"The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society".


What is your source for "lithe" "Gentile" "proletarian" please?

Regards, Bridewell.
__________________
Regards, Bridewell.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-25-2012, 08:48 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 1,859
Default

The term secondary does not mean, in the context of historical methodology, a source of lesser importance.

It means a source crated by somebody who was not there at the time, eg. most history books.

Schwarz's version to the police is arguably more reliable because it is an offical record, and the witness knew this.

On the other hand his account to 'The Star', also a primary source and potentially unreliable because it is a tabloid seeking to hype it up, does provide a more coherent tale -- with a figure who broadly resembles the man who will later be seen chatting with the next victim:

'not so stout' eg. closer to thin; 'moustaches were red' eg. not Slavic; and 'same grade of society', eg. working-class; carrying a knife not smoking a pipe, eg. she was murdered with such a weapon.

The first account is of a man who fled the scene claiming he was the potential victim, and thus had no idea a woman was in lethal danger. The second account might be more candid as he fled from a dispute which was quickly and dangerously escalating, what with a weapon brandished.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:15 PM
DVV DVV is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: To the right of President Sunday
Posts: 5,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
The term secondary does not mean, in the context of historical methodology, a source of lesser importance.

It means a source crated by somebody who was not there at the time, eg. most history books.
???
Most history books are based on sources, primary and secondary.
__________________
"Hence he assumes a knowing air..."
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Stephen Thomas Stephen Thomas is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,677
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
Does my 'master thesis' threaten you ...?
Not at all, Jonathan, and I'll tell you something. As someone who studied and lived in the East End in the 1960s and was always regarded as an outsider by the locals.

A fine featured middle class person like Druitt would, as the Brit phrase goes, have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel in 1888 and I suggest that you should take this fact into account when accusing him of being JTR.
__________________
allisvanityandvexationofspirit
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-25-2012, 10:52 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,574
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
Not at all, Jonathan, and I'll tell you something. As someone who studied and lived in the East End in the 1960s and was always regarded as an outsider by the locals.
Hello Stephen,

It was always that way, I have been told. I remember when I took my (then) wife and elderly family locals into a pub in the East End in the early 80's. One of the elderly ones amongst us, a 72 year old woman, turned around within 10 seconds of us entering and called out to those standing and sitting in the pub.. "they're wiv me"... and all eyes returned to whatever they were doing before we walked in. My ex-wife was rather bemused by the whole episode. Happy days!

best wishes

Phil
__________________
Chelsea FC - original since 1905
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:52 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
A fine featured middle class person like Druitt would, as the Brit phrase goes, have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel in 1888
Interesting you should say that. So what do you think Druitt might have dressed like, "assuming" (just for the sake of argument), that Druitt was on the streets of Whitechapel?

Aged about 30?
Height about 5' 6-7"?
Dress: Morning/Cutaway coat, hard felt hat or Billycock style?
Appearance, like a clerk.
Hair dark, moustache dark, pale complexion?

Sound familar?

Regards, Jon S.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
If nonsense were solid, the nonsense that is written against Hutchinson would sink a Dreadnought
Inspired by, Robert Anderson.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.