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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

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  #71  
Old 03-25-2012, 01:09 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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You're a braver man than me, Gunga Din.

No alternative, hey?

Consider that before 1987, we would also throw out that Swanson ever thought 'Kosminski' was the fiend, or at least that he thought that the fiend was 'deceased' because the same 'Pall Mall Gazette' of 1895 was the only source to claim this about this significant police figure -- until his own Marginalia turned up.

I disagree, too, that Lawende was entirely 'quite forgotten'.

Macnaghten remembered him, all too well, artfully altering the story by pulling inside-out the ethnicity of witness and suspect.

It sure fooled Griffiths and Sims, and arguably set in motion the idea that somebody had seen 'Kosminski' at the scene of a Whitechapel murder.

I also subscribe to the Evans-Rumbelow theory of a fading, though sincere memory re-casting the Lawende-Sadler 'confrontation' to become the mythical one between the Polish Jewish suspect and a treacherous Jewish witness -- unnamed (poor co-operative Lawende).
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  #72  
Old 03-25-2012, 03:10 PM
DVV DVV is offline
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I cannot disagree more.
How do you explain Kebbell's silence on the suject ?
Why no reference in other press records ?
In police recollections ?
In police theories, opinions, interviews.

And yes, I'm braver than you, figure d'anchois.
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  #73  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:28 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post

That's what broadly means. Not exact, but generally the same.

Fair comment

What is tall? Everybody is tall to a person who is not.

To a person of average height, some people are tall some short. Schwartz, though, according to Swanson, did not describe Pipeman as "tall". He said he was 5' 11".

The point is so-called 'Knifeman' is carrying a knife, is lithe, Gentile-featured and attired as a proletarian.


He's more usually known as 'Pipeman' because he was lighting his pipe. The allusion to a knife was introduced in the account given by The Star newspaper, a secondary source at best. Where is this individual described as "lithe, "Gentile-featured and attired as a proletarian"? I can't find it. All I can find is Swanson's report, written on 19th October:

"Second man, age 35, height 5ft. 11in., complexion fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand"

& The Star's report:

"He described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat.

"The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society".


What is your source for "lithe" "Gentile" "proletarian" please?

Regards, Bridewell.
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  #74  
Old 03-25-2012, 08:48 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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The term secondary does not mean, in the context of historical methodology, a source of lesser importance.

It means a source crated by somebody who was not there at the time, eg. most history books.

Schwarz's version to the police is arguably more reliable because it is an offical record, and the witness knew this.

On the other hand his account to 'The Star', also a primary source and potentially unreliable because it is a tabloid seeking to hype it up, does provide a more coherent tale -- with a figure who broadly resembles the man who will later be seen chatting with the next victim:

'not so stout' eg. closer to thin; 'moustaches were red' eg. not Slavic; and 'same grade of society', eg. working-class; carrying a knife not smoking a pipe, eg. she was murdered with such a weapon.

The first account is of a man who fled the scene claiming he was the potential victim, and thus had no idea a woman was in lethal danger. The second account might be more candid as he fled from a dispute which was quickly and dangerously escalating, what with a weapon brandished.
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  #75  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:15 PM
DVV DVV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
The term secondary does not mean, in the context of historical methodology, a source of lesser importance.

It means a source crated by somebody who was not there at the time, eg. most history books.
???
Most history books are based on sources, primary and secondary.
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  #76  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Stephen Thomas Stephen Thomas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
Does my 'master thesis' threaten you ...?
Not at all, Jonathan, and I'll tell you something. As someone who studied and lived in the East End in the 1960s and was always regarded as an outsider by the locals.

A fine featured middle class person like Druitt would, as the Brit phrase goes, have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel in 1888 and I suggest that you should take this fact into account when accusing him of being JTR.
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  #77  
Old 03-25-2012, 10:52 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
Not at all, Jonathan, and I'll tell you something. As someone who studied and lived in the East End in the 1960s and was always regarded as an outsider by the locals.
Hello Stephen,

It was always that way, I have been told. I remember when I took my (then) wife and elderly family locals into a pub in the East End in the early 80's. One of the elderly ones amongst us, a 72 year old woman, turned around within 10 seconds of us entering and called out to those standing and sitting in the pub.. "they're wiv me"... and all eyes returned to whatever they were doing before we walked in. My ex-wife was rather bemused by the whole episode. Happy days!

best wishes

Phil
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  #78  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:52 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
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A fine featured middle class person like Druitt would, as the Brit phrase goes, have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel in 1888
Interesting you should say that. So what do you think Druitt might have dressed like, "assuming" (just for the sake of argument), that Druitt was on the streets of Whitechapel?

Aged about 30?
Height about 5' 6-7"?
Dress: Morning/Cutaway coat, hard felt hat or Billycock style?
Appearance, like a clerk.
Hair dark, moustache dark, pale complexion?

Sound familar?

Regards, Jon S.
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