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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #81  
Old 01-19-2012, 04:35 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default pawn shops

Hello Red. If I recall properly, the police sent inquiries to various local pawn shops concerning the rings.

If so, it is doubtful that they were found at the scene.

Cheers.
LC
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  #82  
Old 01-20-2012, 06:46 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Originally Posted by DrHopper View Post
It makes more sense that the rings were taken post-mortem as trophies, or perhaps by other people after the fact - I'm sure not all of the onlookers and people wanting to 'have a look at a body' were honest upstanding citizens.

Indeed, can we be sure that Annie was wearing the rings as she was murdered - perhaps she pawned them earlier in the evening?
Annie's left hand was laid, fingers open, across her breast, while her right arm lay parallel to her body.
A killer standing at her right side, and pulling the rings off her left hand would just let her hand drop. It lay where it fell on across her breast.

"The third finger of the left hand bore signs of rings having been wrenched off it, and the hands and arms were considerably bruised."

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I'm just not convinced that, even as a means to an end, JTR was a mugger and a murderer.
I know what you mean, but if this killer did use a ligature then he may have been a mugger who evolved to murderer. He could have been a mugger with or without the ligature but muggers did use such a device.

Regards, Jon S.
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  #83  
Old 02-07-2012, 01:17 AM
Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac is offline
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Originally Posted by Garza View Post
I touched this on the Eddowes thread while debating hand cleaning on Kate's apron.

From the literature I have read (correct me if I'm wrong), there was no blood found in No. 29, nor on the doors. This strikes me as odd considering the killer was wrist deep inside Annie Chapman.

There was no alleyway for a back escape, he could have hopped over to the next house, but there would have been blood on the fence.

Blood would only be in the hallway if the killer touched the wall, or blood dripped from hands.

The front door could have been already open when the killer walked out.

However the back door automatically closed itself when opened, therefore if he made his escape through No.29 he would have had to touch the handle/knob.

Therefore his hands had to be clean or blood stained but at least dry.

So how did he clean/dry them? Several options.

1) Used the pan of water under the tap in the yard. However this appeared undisturbed as stated by a member of the household.

2) He wiped them on clothing of Annie Chapman. However there were no smear marks on Annie's clothing other than the neck area, nor was any of her clothing cut off (like Eddowes).

3) He opened the door while having his hands in his coat pockets. Possible, but why? Fingerprints had not come into their own yet. And while you may do this while opening your house door, or any other door to prevent a bloody door handle and getting caught, why the handle at the murder scene?

4) He used his own cloth/handkerchief he had prepared for that night. JtR cut his victims throat in the way to avoid bloodspray and prevent stepping in blood himself. He is a killer that is very conscious about blood being visible on his person, therefore it would not be a stretch to say he carried his own cloth/s to clean or at least dry the blood from his hands (and probably another cloth to wrap organs in).

I think it is option 4 and this is important for two reasons.

It shows that JtR was a prepared and organised killer, he was not random or disorganised at all.

It relation to the Eddowes apron issue. If this killer prepared his own cloth/s for hand cleaning, why would he cut off a large amount of cloth just to clean his hands in Mitre Square?
That's an interesting post.

I would tackle it this way:

Would you step into the street with blood on your hands just after killing someone? I appreciate that he could have been long gone before the body was found, but there was a risk that he wouldn't be.

What would you do? Walk onto the street with blood on your hands, or take one of a few possible simple steps to wipe your hands?

I personally wouldn't have to think too long and hard that the answer was to wipe my hands. I definitely would have done this. Is there anyone on this planet who would have walked onto the street with blood on his hands?

So, how does he do it?

Pretty simple. He wipes his hands on his own dark clothes. The advantage of this being that he can step away from the body and wipe his hands in a more discreet place; the other possibilty is that he steps away from the body in some sort of blood lust and it's only when he's a few yards away that his mind clicks into gear to wipe his hands, with the closest thinmg at hand being his own clothes.
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  #84  
Old 02-07-2012, 02:36 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Originally Posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
What would you do? Walk onto the street with blood on your hands, or take one of a few possible simple steps to wipe your hands?
Did the backyard door even have a doorknob?, he could handle a catch or latch with fingertips.

I can't see him being bothered about leaving bloody fingerprints on the door, its not as if he could fool the police into thinking he left by another route.

However, at that time of morning, any blood on your hands might have been noticed, so unless you intend to manouver the streets with your hand(s) in your pocket(s), you will wipe them to some extent, while in the yard or descending the passage.

There was a man running away from the scene just after 6:00am, but no mention of him carrying anything.

Garza does have a point..
Quote:
4) He used his own cloth/handkerchief he had prepared for that night. JtR cut his victims throat in the way to avoid bloodspray and prevent stepping in blood himself. He is a killer that is very conscious about blood being visible on his person, therefore it would not be a stretch to say he carried his own cloth/s to clean or at least dry the blood from his hands (and probably another cloth to wrap organs in).
Because this murder occured only a week after that of Nichols, which considering the mutilations on Chapman, appeared to have been incomplete. The killer must have come prepared to fullfil his 'agenda', and whatever tools & cloths he needed.
I'm sure he was an opportunistic killer, but you cannot take advantage of an opportunity unless you come prepared.

Regards, Jon S.
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  #85  
Old 02-07-2012, 01:38 PM
Qlder Qlder is offline
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Default Drying hands - a quick stab in the dark...

Thinking from a practical point of view, when one's hands have been in viscera, it's not just that they get wet, but slippery. Blood and guts make one's hands very much more slippery than just water. Others here have suggested Jack needed to wipe his hands on a cloth. I will throw into the mix another method used by those needing to dry wet and slippery hands in a hurry. Weightlifters and rockclimbers dip their hands in chalk. If Jack had a small bag of chalk, he could quickly dust his hands then wipe them on a cloth, leaving his hands relatively clean, and the cloth, while dirty, would not soak a mucky wet patch into his pocket.

The idea of the Ripper using chalk may also be of interest to those looking for links to the strange man with snowy white hands encountered by Sgt. Stephen White (discussed in the article posted in Rob Clack's second post on http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=71)
The use of chalk has been canvassed before -
http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/10451.html - and if you check the link you will realize that's a terrible pun.

(Please note that I haven't read every post on this thread)
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  #86  
Old 02-07-2012, 07:48 PM
DVV DVV is offline
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Hi Qlder, good post, good links.
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  #87  
Old 02-08-2012, 01:41 AM
Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Did the backyard door even have a doorknob?, he could handle a catch or latch with fingertips.

I can't see him being bothered about leaving bloody fingerprints on the door, its not as if he could fool the police into thinking he left by another route.

However, at that time of morning, any blood on your hands might have been noticed, so unless you intend to manouver the streets with your hand(s) in your pocket(s), you will wipe them to some extent, while in the yard or descending the passage.

There was a man running away from the scene just after 6:00am, but no mention of him carrying anything.

Garza does have a point..


Because this murder occured only a week after that of Nichols, which considering the mutilations on Chapman, appeared to have been incomplete. The killer must have come prepared to fullfil his 'agenda', and whatever tools & cloths he needed.
I'm sure he was an opportunistic killer, but you cannot take advantage of an opportunity unless you come prepared.

Regards, Jon S.
I'm not convinced this person planned anything.

We have a situation where he killed approaching daylight at the back of houses; where he killed in a square and he must have known policemen were walking the beat; where he killed outside of a busy club.

This doesn't speak to me of someone covering his tracks and planning in advance; it smacks of someone operating on the hop.

I just don't see how we move from a killer taking a massive gamble to that same killer turning up with cloth to wipe himself.
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  #88  
Old 02-08-2012, 02:32 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Originally Posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
I'm not convinced this person planned anything.
Neither am I. Presumably, when this person went out at night he had a particular purpose in mind. We don't know how many women he engaged, nor how many times he turned away, he may have been out every night, or two-three nights a week. Naturally then he will bring his tools with him.
Being prepared should not be construed as 'planning'.

Quote:
We have a situation where he killed approaching daylight at the back of houses; where he killed in a square and he must have known policemen were walking the beat; where he killed outside of a busy club.
I think its fair to assume almost every street, ally & court was patrolled at some time or another.

Quote:
This doesn't speak to me of someone covering his tracks and planning in advance; it smacks of someone operating on the hop.

I just don't see how we move from a killer taking a massive gamble to that same killer turning up with cloth to wipe himself.
Murder is a massive gamble no matter where it takes place. I don't see him covering his tracks either, cleaning his hands, assuming that he did, is not the same as wiping his hand prints off everything he touched.
Blood turns sticky as it dries, its a natural reaction to want to wipe your hands.
I would presume that when he carried a knife he would also carry a cloth, perhaps he wrapped his knife in the cloth so it didn't cut his pocket.

Regards, Jon S.
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  #89  
Old 02-08-2012, 03:00 AM
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The Grave Maurice The Grave Maurice is offline
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Originally Posted by DVV View Post
Hi Qlder, good post, good links.
I agree with David, Queenslander: nice post. We've had lots of talk about chalk here, but it is usually connected to the Goulston Street graffito. An original idea is always welcome.
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  #90  
Old 09-01-2012, 07:55 PM
Garza Garza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
That's an interesting post.

I would tackle it this way:

Would you step into the street with blood on your hands just after killing someone? I appreciate that he could have been long gone before the body was found, but there was a risk that he wouldn't be.

What would you do? Walk onto the street with blood on your hands, or take one of a few possible simple steps to wipe your hands?

I personally wouldn't have to think too long and hard that the answer was to wipe my hands. I definitely would have done this. Is there anyone on this planet who would have walked onto the street with blood on his hands?

So, how does he do it?

Pretty simple. He wipes his hands on his own dark clothes. The advantage of this being that he can step away from the body and wipe his hands in a more discreet place; the other possibilty is that he steps away from the body in some sort of blood lust and it's only when he's a few yards away that his mind clicks into gear to wipe his hands, with the closest thinmg at hand being his own clothes.
Wiping his hands on dark clothes shows an organised killer anyhow. He had the sense to wear dark clothes, not a nice cream number, he planned ahead.

You could go further and ask why he needed to rip Eddowes apron if he could just wipe his hands on his dark clothes?

With no blood on the door handle of No.29 shows an heightened sense of organisation and forward thinking on the killer's part. He cleaned his hands in that yard kneeling over a butchered women, that is quite a cool calm character. That is why I think we can rule out (as far as we can) suspects with mental disorders like Kosminski

Of course, JtR took risks, all organised killers take calculated risks, that doesn't stop them planning as far as the situation allows - and plan he did.
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