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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hyams, Hyam

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  #41  
Old 10-24-2010, 04:49 PM
tji tji is offline
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Hi Jimi

Knew it. It`s really Apwolf!!!!!!

Poor Ap wolf again, really??!! lol
Poor bloke is going to get a complex!!!

Tj
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  #42  
Old 10-24-2010, 08:10 PM
mariab mariab is offline
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Tracy,
I was joking! I never thought it was your intention to deceive!
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Best regards,
Maria
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  #43  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:03 AM
tji tji is offline
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Hi

I thought I would have a look at the info you have given and have a go myself and I have come up with a puzzling problem myself, I am not sure that the Hyam Hyams being quoted as being in Colney Hatch is the correct one. (Whose family lived in Mitre Street, Solomon and Fanny as parents.)

The information I have found is as follows: -

I have posted the census on Hyam Hyams earlier on in the thread from 1851 - 1891. A quick reminder is
Solomon Hyams father
Fanny Hyams mother
Morris Hyams son
Hyam/Hymey Hyams son
Barney Hyams son
George Hyams son
Clara Hyams daughter
Jane Hyams/Abrahams daughter
John Abrahams son in law.

Hyam is with them until the 1891 census. This I believe is the Hyam Hyams who marries the Rose Hyams you mentioned. Her maiden name is Rose Aarons born 1855 bishopgate to parents Solomon Aarons and Rosa/e Isaacs.

In 1891 at 232 Jubille Street as you say Hyam is there with Rose, which isn't so unlikely, he could be in the asylum and his wife still class him as living there. However in 1901 we have him at 27 Floreston Street still a fruiterer living with Rose and his family. Would his wife still be saying her husband lived with her after another ten years had passed?

My reason for believing the Hyam Hyams from Mitre Street who is said to have gone into the asylum is this man and not the one in Colney hatch....his children's names.

We have Hyam Hyams Head married 43 fruiterer (green) o/a London
Rose Hyams Wife Married 44 London
[i]Fanny[/I] Hyams daughter Single 19 cigar maker worker Whitechapel
Solomon Hyams son single 17 Engineers ? worker London
Morris Hyams son single 15 errand boy worker London
Rose Hyams daughter 13 London
Sarah Hyams daughter 9 London
John Abrahams nephew 16 harness maker worker Aldgate

So this Hyam Hyams has named his children after the mother, father, brother and also has a nephew staying with the same name as his brother in law, as the Hyam Hyams who grew up in Mitre Street.
So I may be wrong but in my opinion this makes it unlikely that the person in Colney Hatch is the Hyam Hyams that grew up in Mitre Street

I think over the years info on different Hyam Hyams have been accidentally meshed into one person.


I think it is more likely the Hyam Hyams married to Rachel living at 40 New Street in 1891 (2 children William and Kate) is the Hyams that went to the asylum.

Tj
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  #44  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:55 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tji View Post
I thought I would have a look at the info you have given and have a go myself and I have come up with a puzzling problem myself, I am not sure that the Hyam Hyams being quoted as being in Colney Hatch is the correct one. (Whose family lived in Mitre Street, Solomon and Fanny as parents.)
It looks to me as though you may be right.

And if that is not the right Hyam in the 1881 census, then the missing marriage to Rachel/Sarah might have taken place earlier. There is a marriage of a Hyman Hymans in the City of London in the third quarter of 1875, and one of the two possible spouses is Rachel Garcia. And then there is a couple named Hyman Hyams and Rachel, both born in Aldgate and roughly the right ages, with children 5 and younger, at 45 Varden Street in the 1881 census. There is a bit of a discrepancy with Sarah's statement in 1911 that she had been married 30 years, but it may be worth looking into.
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  #45  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:53 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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I think there's no doubt that Tracy is right that the Colney Hatch patient Hyam Hyams is a different man from the son of Solomon and Fanny (nee Levy).

The death of a Hyam Hyams aged 78 was registered at Hackney in the last quarter of 1933. He was buried on 11 December at East Ham Cemetery, and his death was announced in the Jewish Chronicle of 15 December as follows:
HYAMS. - on Saturday, the 9th of December, after a very short illness, Hyam (Peter) Hyams, beloved brother of Mrs. Addie Abrahams and Mrs. Clara Boyles. Shiva at 36, Woodside Park-road, N.12.

Clara Boyles is a very uncommon name, and searches of the 1901 and 1911 censuses show only two women of this name who could have been the sister of a man born around 1855 - one born and living in Warwickshire, and the other aged 32 in 1901 and born in Aldgate, who was the wife of Henry R. Boyles. For some reason I haven't been able to find her marriage, but according to the 1911 census she was married around 1897.

As for Addie Abrahams, there was another announcement in the Jewish Chronicle of 9 December 1932, of the engagement of Peter, youngest son of Mrs. and the late Mr. N. Abrahams of 36, Woodside Park-road, North Finchley. Evidently the late Mr N. Abrahams was the Nathan Abrahams whose death aged 68 had been registered at Hackney in the second quarter of 1926(as Nathaniel), who had been buried on 6 June at East Ham Cemetery, and whose death had been announced in the Jewish Chronicle of 11 June as follows:
ABRAHAMS.-On the 4th of June, at 13, Gore road, E.9, Nathan (Naty) Abrahams, beloved husband of Addie, and father of Alfred, John, Sol, Lewis, Alec, Peter, May and Sally.

Given these details there is no difficulty in tracing the family in earlier records. Nathan Abrahams and Adelaide Hyams were married in the City of London in the first quarter of 1881. In 1881 they were living at 1 Mitre Square, in 1891 at 27 Mitre Street (with the wife's name given as "Annie") and in 1901 at 12 Floreston Street ("Ada"). In 1911 she was back to "Adelaide." Her birthplace is given as the City of London (specifically Aldgate in 1901), and the age of birth indicated is around 1862 or 1863.

I think there can be no doubt that this Hyam Hyams (b. c. 1855) and his two sisters Addie/Adelaide (b. c. 1862-3 in Aldgate) and Clara (b. c. 1869 in Aldgate) are the children of Solomon and Fanny Hyams of the same names who appear in the census records (the only slight discrepancy is that Clara Boyles's date of birth is indicated to be 1-2 years later than that of Clara Hyams). This is particularly so in view of the fact that Nathan and Adelaide Abrahams were living in 1891 next door but one to the former family home in Mitre Street.

For further confirmation, in 1901 Nathan and Adelaide had in their household a niece, Kate Abrahams, aged 14, a tailoress, born in Aldgate. The other Hyams sister Jane, who had married John Abrahams, had a daughter who fits exactly - though that daughter does appear in her parents' household in the same census. Presumably she was entered twice.

The other interesting thing is that Nathan Abrahams and Adelaide had a son John who was born c. 1886, who would match the nephew John Abrahams who - as Tracy pointed out above - appears in the household of Hyam Hyams and Rose in 1901. (This John also came close to appearing twice in the census, as his name was written in his parents' return but then deleted.)

In summary, it does seem clear that Hyam Hyams the son of Solomon and Fanny (nee Levy) did not die until 1933, and was therefore not the same Hyam Hyams who was at Colney Hatch. It does seem likely that he was the man who married Rose Aarons and appeared as a fruiterer in the 1891 and 1901 censuses. That could be definitely confirmed by the marriage certificate, which would give his father's name.
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  #46  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:19 PM
tji tji is offline
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Hi Chris

Great research on Hyams and his family, as you say the fact that he didn't die until 1933 definitely helps to prove Hyam Hyams is the wrong one, now we just have to find out which one entered Colney Hatch!

Tj
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  #47  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:11 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tji View Post
Great research on Hyams and his family, as you say the fact that he didn't die until 1933 definitely helps to prove Hyam Hyams is the wrong one, now we just have to find out which one entered Colney Hatch!
Thanks for your comments.

I also searched for a death/burial for Rose Hyams, and found a likely possibility - a Rose Hyams whose death at the age of 87 was registered at Hendon in the fourth quarter of 1942, and who was buried at East Ham Cemetery on 14 December. (Unfortunately the issue of the Jewish Chronicle for 18 December is missing from the online archive, otherwise it might have been possible to confirm that this is the right Rose from a death announcement.)
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  #48  
Old 11-18-2010, 12:20 AM
Robert Robert is online now
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Chris, apologies because I am not up to speed with this thread, but I gathered you were looking for a marriage between a Clara and a Henry Boyles. I couldn't find it, but from the censuses it seems his middle initial was 'R'. I have a Henry Robert Boyles in the frame for him, registered Kensington Q4 1861. I have him 1911 and 1901 but lose him in 1891. But there is a probate for a Henry Robert Boyles, which makes me wonder if these two never actually married.
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  #49  
Old 11-18-2010, 12:52 AM
Robert Robert is online now
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There was a Clara Boyles d. Hammersmith Q4 1951 aged 84. Clara Hyams was born London C Q2 1868. That would make Clara Boyles's age at death one year out if they were one and the same person.
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  #50  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:15 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Robert

Thanks for that additional information. That certainly makes it look as though Henry and Clara weren't legally married.

In the post above, I should have included other estimates of Clara's date of birth:
1901 census: c. 1869
1911 census: c. 1868
Death: c 1867

So on the whole there's not much of a discrepancy with the actual birth date of 1868.
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