Schwartz and Brown

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"Sorry for being smart ass but that was just too good to pass up. Now I know it was not uncommon to carry a knife... but on a date?....hmmm."

Well, c.d, I think we need to ask ourselves WHY people carried knives at all. And there are two suggestions that spring to mind:

1. Practical purposes - cutting the odd piece of leather from your boot, you know.
2.Self-defence - if somebody should pop up and tell you that your money would be better off in their pockets than in yours.

...and I fail to see why one would conclude that none of these needs would arise on an East-end date in 1888.

I keep a knife in the pocket of my jacket at all times, c.d - a Swiss army knife, to be more exact. It has been there for as many years as I have owned my jacket, and before that it lay in the pocket of my old jacket. I never take it out, since I never know when it will come in handy. The last time I used it was months ago.

the best,
Fisherman

[dixon9]

Fish

do you know the 'sweethearts' names?
cheers

Dixon9
still learning

[c.d.]

"Is that a knife in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Dixon9 asks:

"do you know the 'sweethearts' names?"

No, Dixon - and nobody does. Dave Yost makes a fair case for the woman of the couple being Charles Letchfords sister Florence (who was 28 at the time), but the name of her fiancée is something I have never seen proposed.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d:

""Is that a knife in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

Haha! Nice one c.d - but MY knife lies in the inner pocket of my jacket, and rests against my chest. No manhood reaches THAT far, I suspect!

The best!
Fisherman

[dixon9]

thanks fish,just thought i might have overlooked it.

dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

Hello CD.

"You're not trying to lead me into a trap here are you Lynn? Why do I keep thinking that I am going to hear somebody yell "Checkmate" before long?"

Not a bit of it. I think we all checkmated ourselves when we got started with this. (I knew a chap one who married a girl from Prague. He was REALLY Czech mated.)

Perhaps we really should start that "Saving Liz Stride" thread.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

Hello Fish.

"Haha! Nice one c.d - but MY knife lies in the inner pocket of my jacket, and rests against my chest. No manhood reaches THAT far, I suspect!"

I can hear CD saying, "I ask you to speak for yourself, Fisherman."

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Fish,

My effort to make sense of Schwartz in this instance does not deviate from what he actually said in any way.

Doesn't it?

Are you sure?

I thought you had BS saying "Lizzie" despite Schwartz's claim that he said "Lipski"? In which case, you'd be deviating from what he actually said "in some way", which is something I shouldn't be doing, according to you. Apologies if I've confused you with some other theorist. The street was in the opposite direction to the "footway", which means that if he first dragged her into the street, he'd need to throw her in the opposite direction from the street in order for her to end up on the footway. That doesn't make sense, which is why I've suggested that he always intended to take her in the direction of the yard.

You don't think the "Lipksi" remark makes sense, so you've interpreted Schwartz's account to arrive at a different conclusion, and I've used a similar degree of interpretation to make sense of the throwing/footway evidence. There is, fundamentally, no difference in our approach to the evidence. You just prefer your interpretation for some reason, and I still don't begrudge you that. I prefer mine.

All you need to realize, Ben, is that when somebody hears somebody scream and makes the remark that it happened in a not very loud voice, then that conception is normally NOT guided by a belief that the screaming person could probably not scream any higher.

Yes, but nor is it governed by an assumption that normal, functioning human beings are accustomed to doctoring the volume of their fear-enduced screams to ensure that they accord with the level of anxiety they feel. Appropriate screaming volume is a concept that must remain alien to me, I'm afraid, and the same can be said of appropriate punching ferocity, as per your analogy. If I observed that someone punched another bloke, "but not hard", I would have no way of knowing if the "puncher" in question had a weak punch, or if he was deliberately punching below his weight, so to speak. Would I really be in a position to assess his punching prowess without having met him? "Gosh, he really sissied out there on the punching stakes. Yes, I bet if he really gave it some proper welly, he'd knock the other fella out cold. Nope, I'm forced to assume that he delivered a case-specific punch that corresponded exactly to the severity of the situation".

Come on.

In short - no, it is not by far likely that Schwartz thought that Stride could not cry out loud. It is far likelier that he was of the meaning that she had probably lowered her voice.

Well you go ahead and think that, if that reflects your feelings on the subject. I feel tremendously comfortable finding your objections unconvincing, and remain of the opinion that your views on what is "far likelier" are unwarranted. But how nice that we can discuss this on a friendly basis.

[harry]

I do have good grounds for believing what I state.It is not pure speculation but based on medical opinion at the time,that the victim had suffered no recent external injuries,except some small bruising around the shoulders,which ,in the opinion of the docters,had been caused while attacked inside the yard.Now if Stride had been thrown to the ground by BS,the ground being of stone or concrete,I would speculate,and have good grounds for doing so,that she would have received some grazing or bruising that would have been visible to the doctors who later examined her body.There was none.
So lets have a look again at what Schwartz is alledged to have said."He threw her to the ground'.Well we see in wrestling and some other sports that it is possible to lift a person off their feet and throw them,so accepting your proposal that I should believe ,without question,what the witness Schwartz said,then that is what BS did. He threw Stride,on to stone or concrete, and it left no mark of injury or contact.You want me to believe that?I would sooner believe that the evidence of Schwartz cannot be taken for it's accuracy.That whatever happened ouside the yard was of a minor nature,and that her fall was by other than a violent assault.