change in modus operandi

[lynn cates]

Hello Sam. Who needs uteri in their prime? (I'd make a quip here, but had better not--don't wish to be banned.)

The doctor? Well, perhaps he had a taste for older women--perhaps he didn't like the taste of women at all?

Cheers.
LC

[miss_anna]

I believe that of the known suspects Klosowski/Chapman would most likely be the ripper! The big mistake i believe that people make about the ripper is assuming that his main pleasure was derived from slashing and mutilating. I believe jtr's main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the community. As with the btk killer it was important that his victims be discovered.

Klosowoski's poisioning murders occured after his legal name change to Chapman. They were much more sadistic considering the extent of suffering his victims endured. With this modus operandi he could linger at the crime scene.

[Natalie Severn]

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

[miss_anna]

Originally Posted by Natalie Severn

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

If jtr simply got his pleasure simply from mutilating corpses he could have struck in sparsely populated areas where the risk of being discovered was minimal.

Surgeons are generally trained with human cadavers. You may accuse me of wild speculation, but i can imagine Klosowski in Poland being trained in pitch darkness to operate on cadavers. A good surgeon could do this. I imagine Klosowski was immensely disappointed when his Polish creditentals as a surgeon were rejected by the English medical establishment!

[Natalie Severn]

Good point Anna.I have thought about the possibility that it was precisely because his previous work in Poland wasnt recognised over here and that consequently resulted in him being denied access to an operating theatre or mortuary which he may have caused his morbidity to develop an excess of need for satisfaction and ultimately to know no bounds!I am thinking of his love of guns which he decorated his pubs with, his hanging the stars and stripes flag upside down too in his pubs,revealing a sort of angry misfit .If his unhealthy interest in death had been awakened at the site of dead and sometimes "surgically dissected" bodies at the hospital in Praga,then he probably was hard put to find an outlet for his "interests"!

[miss_anna]

http://www.cafepress.com/+sadists_ma...ker,443 13793
Interesting point Natalie!
I'm not trying to make surgeons look bad, but it's generally accepted as fact that a "sadist" is a much better surgeon than a "touchy feely" doctor who feels plenty of compassion for his patient. Compassionate people just can't seem to be cool and professional when cutting up a human being. There are articles discussing this fact, but i'd have to google them up.

I also noticed Klosowski/Chapman's display of weapons on the wall in these pictures of him with his later murdered wife Bessie Taylor.

The triangle shape of this display of weapons makes me think of the 2 triangular wounds made under under Catherine Eddowes eyes by the ripper.
http://photos.casebook.org/albums/v_...wes_sketch.jpg
I scoff at the freemason conspiracy take on these wounds, but i feel they symbolized something for the ripper.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks for posting these Anna---very helpful! I had actually forgotten where I had seen them and now you"ve reminded me! Stangely enough I knew this about some surgeons from a long time back and I seem to recall that I read about it in a medical book of all things!
Its getting late for me so I will leave it at that for tonight but you raise some compelling issues here you know!
Best
Norma
x
yes---the patterning of triangles may well have been embedded in his consciousness but whether it symbolized anything much is hard to know......

[miss_anna]

Originally Posted by Natalie Severn

Thanks for posting these Anna---very helpful! I had actually forgotten where I had seen them and now you"ve reminded me! Stangely enough I knew this about some surgeons from a long time back and I seem to recall that I read about it in a medical book of all things!
Its getting late for me so I will leave it at that for tonight but you raise some compelling issues here you know!
Best
Norma
x
yes---the patterning of triangles may well have been embedded in his consciousness but whether it symbolized anything much is hard to know......

I guess we can only speculate on the meaning of the 2 triangle shaped wounds..The Maybrick diary believers think the ^^ on Eddowes face should stand for M=Maybrick, but i'm not on that bandwagon or the Illuminati pyramid rants. Being at the top of the pyramid or the king of the mountain has a meaning to an egoist, but of course i can only speculate. Hope you don't have ripper dreams! Best Wishes!

[Frank van Oploo]

Originally Posted by miss_anna

The big mistake i believe that people make about the ripper is assuming that his main pleasure was derived from slashing and mutilating. I believe jtr's main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the community. As with the btk killer it was important that his victims be discovered.

Hi Anna,

The thing is that the Ripper didn’t kill and mutilate them somewhere indoors first, only to put them on display outdoors afterwards. He also did that outdoors, taking the huge risk of getting caught. If the Ripper’s main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the public, he didn’t need to kill and mutilate outdoors. Plus, he could have just slashed their throats like he did and cut up their faces, for instance. That wouldn’t have taken more than 30 seconds but would still be shocking, whereas his mutilations probably took some minutes at least.

Even if he would have done his business indoors and left the bodies on display there, like with Dennis Rader’s victims, there would have been someone who’d find them and there would have been an audience, who would be shocked.

All in all, in order to shock, I don't think the Ripper needed to do his job outdoors from beginning to end, nor do I think that, if he was so bent on doing things outdoors, he needed to mutilate as extensively as he did, or under the skirts.

All the best,
Frank

[Natalie Severn]

Anna,

I am willing to be persuaded about the ^ ^"s but still cant see much significance as yet. Like Frank I tend to see him having to get at the body itself most importantly -almost like one of the old operations for gall stones he opened the torso up to the breast bone and that seem to have been his aim-bring about death ,then open up the trunk and remove one or two body parts.Mission accomplished!
The knife drawing on the face,nose ears seems to have been a type of "doodling" almost!
Best
Norma