Who do you credit as the most reliable witnesses?

[RipperNoob]

Of all the witnesses (let's go with witnesses of the 'Canonical Five'), who do you feel offered up the most credible testimony?

[GUT]

Of all the witnesses (let's go with witnesses of the 'Canonical Five'), who do you feel offered up the most credible testimony?

About what issue(s)?

[RipperNoob]

About what issue(s)?

Mainly, the sightings of JTR.

[Scott Nelson]

P.C. Smith and/or Israel Schwartz.

[Abby Normal]

Of all the witnesses (let's go with witnesses of the 'Canonical Five'), who do you feel offered up the most credible testimony?

peaked cap man witnesses-PC smith, lawende, marshall, Israel Schwartz.

cox and sarah lewis.

[GUT]

Mainly, the sightings of JTR.

In that case none.

I'm far from persuaded that any of them saw Jack.

[Craig H]

Hi Rippernoob,

Good “back to basics” thread.

I found the summary below on another site and have grouped it using Abby’s post.

While we all know witnesses are often wrong, the consistent theme from witnesses appears to be about 5’7’ tall; English, educated, 30 y.o (so bn 1858), moustache

PEAK CAP

William Marshall (Elizabeth Stride) 11:45 P.M.
Small, black coat, dark trousers, middle aged, round cap with a small sailor-like peak. 5’6″, stout, appearance of a clerk. No moustache, no gloves, with a cutaway coat.
“You would say anything but your prayers.” Spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.

P.C. William Smith (Elizabeth Stride) 12:30 A.M.
Aged 28, cleanshaven and respectable appearance, 5’7″, hard dark felt deerstalker hat, dark clothes. Carrying a newspaper parcel 18 x 7 inches.

Israel Schwartz (Elizabeth Stride) 12:45 A.M.
First man: Aged 30, 5’5″, brown haired, fair complexion, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak. “Lipski!”

Joseph Lawende (Catharine Eddowes) 1:30 A.M.
Aged 30, 5’7″, fair complexion, brown moustache, salt-and-pepper coat, red neckerchief, grey peaked cloth cap. Sailor-like.

OTHER



Patrick Mulshaw (Polly Nichols) 4:00 A.M.
“Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street.”
Emily (Annie Chapman) 2:00 A.M.
Foreigner aged 37, dark beard and moustache. Wearing short dark jacket, dark vest and trousers, black scarf and black felt hat. Asked witness to enter the back-yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Elizabeth Long (Annie Chapman) 5:30 A.M.
Dark complexion, brown deerstalker hat, possibly a dark overcoat. Aged over 40, somewhat taller than Chapman. A foreigner of “shabby genteel.” “Will you?”

J. Best and John Gardner (Elizabeth Stride) 11:00 P.M.
5’5″ tall, English, black moustache, sandy eyelashes, weak, wearing a morning suit and a billycock hat.

Matthew Packer (Elizabeth Stride) 12:00 – 12:30 P.M.
Aged 25-30, 5’7″, long black coat buttoned up, soft felt hawker hat, broad shoulders. Maybe a young clerk, frock coat, no gloves. Quiet in speaking, with a rough voice.

James Brown (Elizabeth Stride) 12:45 A.M.
5’7″, stout, long black diagonal coat which reached almost to his heels.

James Blenkinsop (Catharine Eddowes) 1:30 A.M.
Well-dressed. “Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?”

Mary Ann Cox (Mary Kelly) 11:45 P.M.
Short, stout man, shabbily dressed. Billycock hat, blotchy face, carroty moustache, holding quart can of beer

George Hutchinson (Mary Kelly) 2:00 A.M.
Aged 34-35, 5’6″, pale complexion, dark hair, slight moustached curled at each end, long dark coat, collar cuffs of astrakhan, dark jacket underneath. Light waistcoat, thick gold chain with a red stone seal, dark trousers and button boots, gaiters, white buttons. White shirt, black tie fastened with a horseshoe pin. Dark hat, turned down in middle. Red kerchief. Jewish and respectable in appear

[Pierre]

Of all the witnesses (let's go with witnesses of the 'Canonical Five'), who do you feel offered up the most credible testimony?

Lechmere.

[John Wheat]

Lechmere.

[lynn cates]

Long

Hello RN. Try Mrs. Long.

Cheers.
LC

[Kattrup]

Hutchinson

[Abby Normal]

Hi Rippernoob,

Good “back to basics” thread.

I found the summary below on another site and have grouped it using Abby’s post.

While we all know witnesses are often wrong, the consistent theme from witnesses appears to be about 5’7’ tall; English, educated, 30 y.o (so bn 1858), moustache

PEAK CAP

William Marshall (Elizabeth Stride) 11:45 P.M.
Small, black coat, dark trousers, middle aged, round cap with a small sailor-like peak. 5’6″, stout, appearance of a clerk. No moustache, no gloves, with a cutaway coat.
“You would say anything but your prayers.” Spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.

P.C. William Smith (Elizabeth Stride) 12:30 A.M.
Aged 28, cleanshaven and respectable appearance, 5’7″, hard dark felt deerstalker hat, dark clothes. Carrying a newspaper parcel 18 x 7 inches.

Israel Schwartz (Elizabeth Stride) 12:45 A.M.
First man: Aged 30, 5’5″, brown haired, fair complexion, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak. “Lipski!”

Joseph Lawende (Catharine Eddowes) 1:30 A.M.
Aged 30, 5’7″, fair complexion, brown moustache, salt-and-pepper coat, red neckerchief, grey peaked cloth cap. Sailor-like.

OTHER



Patrick Mulshaw (Polly Nichols) 4:00 A.M.
“Watchman, old man, I believe somebody is murdered down the street.”
Emily (Annie Chapman) 2:00 A.M.
Foreigner aged 37, dark beard and moustache. Wearing short dark jacket, dark vest and trousers, black scarf and black felt hat. Asked witness to enter the back-yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Elizabeth Long (Annie Chapman) 5:30 A.M.
Dark complexion, brown deerstalker hat, possibly a dark overcoat. Aged over 40, somewhat taller than Chapman. A foreigner of “shabby genteel.” “Will you?”

J. Best and John Gardner (Elizabeth Stride) 11:00 P.M.
5’5″ tall, English, black moustache, sandy eyelashes, weak, wearing a morning suit and a billycock hat.

Matthew Packer (Elizabeth Stride) 12:00 – 12:30 P.M.
Aged 25-30, 5’7″, long black coat buttoned up, soft felt hawker hat, broad shoulders. Maybe a young clerk, frock coat, no gloves. Quiet in speaking, with a rough voice.

James Brown (Elizabeth Stride) 12:45 A.M.
5’7″, stout, long black diagonal coat which reached almost to his heels.

James Blenkinsop (Catharine Eddowes) 1:30 A.M.
Well-dressed. “Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?”

Mary Ann Cox (Mary Kelly) 11:45 P.M.
Short, stout man, shabbily dressed. Billycock hat, blotchy face, carroty moustache, holding quart can of beer

George Hutchinson (Mary Kelly) 2:00 A.M.
Aged 34-35, 5’6″, pale complexion, dark hair, slight moustached curled at each end, long dark coat, collar cuffs of astrakhan, dark jacket underneath. Light waistcoat, thick gold chain with a red stone seal, dark trousers and button boots, gaiters, white buttons. White shirt, black tie fastened with a horseshoe pin. Dark hat, turned down in middle. Red kerchief. Jewish and respectable in appear

Hi Craig
Thanks!!

While we all know witnesses are often wrong, the consistent theme from witnesses appears to be about 5’7’ tall; English, educated, 30 y.o (so bn 1858), moustache

I agree with this and would add below avg height, stout (powerfully built) and not dressed extremely wealthy or poor-somewhere inbetween.


Just minor points in regards to smith and marshall:

Marshall didn't get a clear view of the mans face-not the man had no mustache and PC smith (I beleive) just didn't describe the mans face/facial hair in his statement.

[Rosella]

I think PC Smith, whose suspect has often been ignored IMO. Witness identification is so very unreliable but I think a policeman's description is better than most. I do think Jack was probably shortish, sturdy, strong, and able to blend in with the general population.

[Damaso Marte]

Well I can tell you who I don't find credible at all, which is Schwartz and Hutchinson.

There are standard reasons for doubt that can be applied to all witnesses in the Whitechapel murders: these reasons include the fact that witnesses in general are notoriously inaccurate, the fact that we can't be 100% sure who is fabricating and who isn't, and the fact that we can't be 100% sure that what anyone saw was actually relevant to the murder. With Schwartz and Hutchinson, we have those standard reasons, and others on top of them: the implausibility of Hutch's story (applicable to Schwartz too to a lesser extent), and the fact that Schwartz is contradicted by others.

I find Lawende credible because of the circumstances: we know that Eddowes died shortly after his sighting (we have her time of death down to a smaller window of time than Chapman, Kelly, or even Stride). He really is the best witness in my book, even though he says he didn't get a good look.

[John G]

Well I can tell you who I don't find credible at all, which is Schwartz and Hutchinson.

There are standard reasons for doubt that can be applied to all witnesses in the Whitechapel murders: these reasons include the fact that witnesses in general are notoriously inaccurate, the fact that we can't be 100% sure who is fabricating and who isn't, and the fact that we can't be 100% sure that what anyone saw was actually relevant to the murder. With Schwartz and Hutchinson, we have those standard reasons, and others on top of them: the implausibility of Hutch's story (applicable to Schwartz too to a lesser extent), and the fact that Schwartz is contradicted by others.

I find Lawende credible because of the circumstances: we know that Eddowes died shortly after his sighting (we have her time of death down to a smaller window of time than Chapman, Kelly, or even Stride). He really is the best witness in my book, even though he says he didn't get a good look.

I would agree with this. I also consider Morris Lewis and Matthew Packer unreliable and, to say lesser extent, Caroline Maxwell.