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  • #16
    Another Birth?

    John Wilson born Everton St Ambrose 3rd October 1888
    to Robert (a baker) and Mary of 24 Amos street

    Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
    witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
    Marys dad is John a Joiner....

    Pat.........................................

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    • #17
      Army Arthur ?

      Ancestry military records
      Sullivan Arthur
      Loyal North Lancs Reg
      Attested as a Group 7 Bakers Assistant 1917 Reg no 32915,
      Address Ivyleigh ?brook Liverpool
      age 30 years 1 month.

      Transfer to Royal Army medical Corps 1818 Reg no 142292
      Next of Kin: brother Thomas Sullivan

      Letter 1923 address Liverpool mentions 13th Com?, scottish com?
      Damaged Thumb in war
      Received Victory Medal

      May not be him but he Liverpool address, Name, Bakers assistant and medical connections fit

      Pat.............................

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      • #18
        Apologies

        Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
        He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one

        Pat................................

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Paddy View Post
          Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
          witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
          Marys dad is John a Joiner....
          Pat, this is the correct marriage. Robert is listed as a baker.

          The Robert, baker, you found married to a Mary who gave birth to a John in October 1888 are the wrong ones. They are still on Amos St. with Mary's parents in 1891. Their last name is Matthews, not Kelly. John is missing.

          1891 Census
          Liverpool
          24 Amos St

          Joseph Matthews lorry driver b Ireland
          Mary Matthews wife b Scotland
          Robert Wilson son in law baker b Liverpool
          Mary Wilson wife b Liverpool

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Paddy View Post
            Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
            He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one...
            The name change to Arthur Sullivan did not occur until his marriage in London in 1919. He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

            He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.

            If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return. He was seriously injured but I don't know if that would warrant a name change and a denial of being a Wilson after his retirement as a soldier.

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            • #21
              Edith Wilson

              Did you ever consider the Edith Wilson baptised 1888 in Everton st Chrysostom Liverpool, as a sister for your chap?
              She was brought in an baptised by a man called David Ingrams? in 1888
              but her mother and father were called Robert and Mary.
              There was an Edith Wilson in the Ripley Hospital in 1891 census aged 11.
              Did you find what happened to Christina?

              I found the following info on a Ripley Hospital website

              Ripley St Thomas School began life as Ripley Hospital, an endowed school founded by Mrs. Julia Ripley in memory of her husband, Thomas Ripley, who was a native of Lancaster and a merchant of Liverpool. The school buildings and grounds are most attractive, occupying an elevated site giving open views to the City of Lancaster and the Lake District hills beyond. It was opened on the 3 November, 1864 "amid great public rejoicing". Originally endowed for the education of an equal number of boys and girls - altogether 300 in number - the parents of whom had to have lived for at least 2 years immediately preceding the death of the father either within 15 miles of Lancaster Priory, or 7 miles of Liverpool Cathedral.

              I also read that the Salvation Army were active in Liverpool.

              Pat............................

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              • #22
                No, I never considered Edith Wilson. William only claimed Christina as his sister.

                Christina went into the Fazakerley Cottage Homes in 1890 and then got married in 1899 to Robert Ironside and moved to Scotland.
                http://boards.ancestry.com/localitie...4555.6/mb.ashx

                You're right about the Salvation Army operating in Liverpool, even in the 1880s. So William could have been referring to the Sally Ann there instead of in Whitechapel.

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                • #23
                  I don't find the delay in reporting the birth to be significant, even if it went beyond the legal parameters. My father was born at home in 1920 and didn't get a birth certificate until he needed one to start grade school. This wasn't in some small rural town either, he was born and raised in Chicago. If John was born in the home, then they might not have gotten around to registering his birth until quite some time afterwards. An interesting question would be if there are similar delays in reporting which are evident in other children born in that area in the general time frame.

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                  • #24
                    I ordered a couple of incorrect birth certificates when I was looking for William John Wilson's. They are from London in 1883 and Lancaster in '84 because I thought he might be older and might be born outside of Liverpool. I also found a Liverpool certificate from 1896 on Google images.

                    The delays in reporting are 9 days and 42 days and 44 days.

                    So it looks like the new parents wait until right up to the legal limit of 42 and go over. Although this is not a representative sample, it looks like you might be right, Penhalion. 54 days might not be significant.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                      Here is the 1861 Census putting Jack Wilson's uncle's sister-in-law, Angelica Gould, in the residence of a cotton broker. The uncle's name is Henry Kelly, married to Margaret Gould.
                      In the course of my research, I asked a living relative of Liverpool cotton broker, Augustus Agelasto, if there were any Ripper tales in his family and he said he hadn't heard of any.

                      William John Kelly married the alleged goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon. Her family were certainly servants of Carnarvon, based on Census records putting her aunt and uncle, Elizabeth Ryan and Pierre (Fund, sic) Funel, with Lady Carnarvon at Pixton Park in 1891.

                      We can believe that Ripper stories were bandied about by the Carnarvons since sources put the Royal Conspiracy originating with one of their relatives, Caroline Acland.
                      'The clearest, most accurate, and most up-to-date account of the Ripper murders, by one of Britain's greatest and most respected experts on the "autumn of terror" in Victorian London.' William D. Rubenstein, Professor of Modern History, University of Wales, Aberystwyth England in the 1880s was a society in transition, shedding the skin of Victorianism and moving towards a more modern age. Promiscuity, moral decline, prostitution, unemployment, poverty, police inefficiency... all these things combined to create a feeling of uncertainty and fear. The East End of London became the focus of that fear. Here lived the uneducated, poverty-ridden and morally destitute masses. When Jack the Ripper walked onto the streets of the East End he came to represent everything that was wrong with the area and with society as a whole. He was fear in a human form, an unknown lurker in the shadows who could cross boundaries and kill. Jack the Ripper: The Definitive History is not yet another attempt to identify the culprit. Instead, the book sets the murders in their historical context, examining in depth what East London was like in 1888, how it came to be that way, and how events led to one of the most infamous and grisly episodes of the Victorian era.

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                      • #26
                        Here is a thread identifying a woman matching Mary Kelly's newspaper description and sent in as a tip to the Met by a retired Birkenhead police inspector, George West.
                        http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006

                        This "Birkenhead MJK" matches Jack Wilson's mother.

                        George West also mentions the woman living with her mother in Birkenhead. This also turned out to match Jack Wilson's mother.

                        His grandmother is in Birkenhead with his aunt in 1881.

                        * Civil parish: Tranmere
                        County/Island: Cheshire
                        Street Address: 101 Peel St
                        Registration district: Birkenhead

                        Household Members: Name Age

                        John Dixon 65
                        Ann Dixon 68
                        Ellen Dixon 14
                        Ann A. Dixon 29
                        George Dixon 1
                        Mary Kelly 60

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                        • #27
                          So, wait, I'm confused - - are we making the assumption that this man is related to the Mary Jane Kelly?

                          Or are we just trying to figure out why this man has changed his name on occasion, and that to the curious, it is a puzzling action?

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                          • #28
                            G'Day Elena

                            Some speculate [think] he was related to Mary Jame Kelly, the victim of Jacky.
                            G U T

                            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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                            • #29
                              1881 census

                              Having found Robert and Mary Wilsons marriage cert that states Marys dad was John Kelly a Joiner.
                              They are probably these I think in Liverpool 1881. You may already have them?.....

                              RG11/3594 page 47

                              Robert Wilson b 1854 Head Liverpool Baker
                              Mary b 1855 wife ..
                              Robert b 1874 son ..
                              Christina b 1871 daughter
                              John Kelly b1824 Visitor Ireland Joiner..

                              Pat.........................

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                              • #30
                                Christina

                                It actually says Christina is 10, so this could have meant to be 10 months old ?

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