A6 Rebooted

[Kerry1983]

Hello Kerry1983 and welcome to the forum.

Hanratty said in evidence that he had a room at the back of the house, and that he did not bother to draw the curtains. He said that when he awoke he could see a small courtyard.

Is it possible to see the rear courtyard from the bathroom on the top floor.

You say that the green bath was not an attic room, but a room on the third floor.

As Foot describes Ingledene;
On the ground floor at the front is the dining room.
On the first floor there were 4 of the 6 letting bedrooms; rooms 1,2,4 and 6.
On the second floor 2 more letting bedrooms; rooms 3 and 5.


Mrs Grace Jones in her evidence is reported to call the bathroom as being in the "attic" which is why we have been calling it an attic bathroom. You say, however, that it is just a room on the third floor. Were there any other rooms on the third floor. Do you know is any building alterations have been made to Ingledene to alter the room configuration.

If any of Hanratty-did-not-do-it-ites could tell me in what bedroom Hanratty spent the nights of 22 and 23 August 1961, I would be very grateful. If it was the case that he spent the night in the bathroom, why did he not mention the bed and bath being in the same room?

Hi Spitfire,

There is no way at all that he could have seen the courtyard from the bathroom, it just has a small skylight window which is on the front of the house.
Yes the bathroom is definitely just another room, not an attic at all. You're correct with the amount of bedrooms on each floor but the numbers are wrong (i think), i'll have to check, they're still on the doors.
There are only 3 rooms on the third floor, when i moved in they were 2 bedrooms and the bathroom with green bath.
No i'm not aware of any building alterations, they're all as they were in 1961 as far as i can tell. All had the original sinks etc when i moved in.

[Kerry1983]

Hanratty was clear that he could see the rear courtyard from his room. According to Foot Room No 4 was at the front of the house above the front dining room, so even without the presence of Mr Sayle room 4 does not fit the bill.

Room number 4 is directly over the front door, it's only a small room. It's room number 3 that is over the front dining room.

[Spitfire]

Hi Spitfire,

There is no way at all that he could have seen the courtyard from the bathroom, it just has a small skylight window which is on the front of the house.
Yes the bathroom is definitely just another room, not an attic at all. You're correct with the amount of bedrooms on each floor but the numbers are wrong (i think), i'll have to check, they're still on the doors.
There are only 3 rooms on the third floor, when i moved in they were 2 bedrooms and the bathroom with green bath.
No i'm not aware of any building alterations, they're all as they were in 1961 as far as i can tell. All had the original sinks etc when i moved in.

Hi Kerry, Thanks for that.

Paul Foot doesn't mention there being any bedrooms on the third floor. As stated above he writes that there were a total of six bedrooms in Ingledene, (four available for letting), and that four were on the first floor and two and the second floor. He doesn't mention any on the third floor.

[Kerry1983]

Hi Kerry, Thanks for that.

Paul Foot doesn't mention there being any bedrooms on the third floor. As stated above he writes that there were a total of six bedrooms in Ingledene, (four available for letting), and that four were on the first floor and two and the second floor. He doesn't mention any on the third floor.

Oh sorry, it's me confusing you with calling the floors different names. I always refer to it as the third floor as it's the third level! It is infact the second floor!
The first floor had 4 bedrooms and the individual toilet and the second floor had 2 bedooms and the bathroom.
There is no third floor, apologies

[moste]

Hi there, I don't know if i'm posting in the right place so please correct me if i'm not.
I currently own Ingledene on Kinmel Street in Rhyl and have done for the past 9 years, i came across these forums a couple of weeks ago and just thought i would make myself known and see if i can be of any help at all.

Thanks,
Kerry.

Hi Kerry welcome to the forum,

As well as the green bath, which Hanratty identified, and the hat stand in the hall which obviously would be long gone, Hanratty also mentioned to his defence team and also to his parents, the existence of a tiled back yard, I was wondering if that was still around when you moved in?
For people who believe Hanratty was innocent, all of the above are irrefutable evidence that the man stayed there.
Regardless of weather Hanratty stayed in the attic room which incidentally would not have been permissible by the local laws of the day,(which Mrs Jones knew, but was nevertheless prepared to admit) he did SEE the bathtub, so other than proof that the dates of him staying at Ingledene, were wrong, he had a solid alibi.
Cheers Steve.

[Kerry1983]

Hi Kerry welcome to the forum,

As well as the green bath, which Hanratty identified, and the hat stand in the hall which obviously would be long gone, Hanratty also mentioned to his defence team and also to his parents, the existence of a tiled back yard, I was wondering if that was still around when you moved in?
For people who believe Hanratty was innocent, all of the above are irrefutable evidence that the man stayed there.
Regardless of weather Hanratty stayed in the attic room which incidentally would not have been permissible by the local laws of the day,(which Mrs Jones knew, but was nevertheless prepared to admit) he did SEE the bathtub, so other than proof that the dates of him staying at Ingledene, were wrong, he had a solid alibi.
Cheers Steve.

Hi Steve,

Yes the tiled back yard was indeed there. They were small, probably about 10cm square from what i can remember. Lots were broken and the garden was very full of rubbish, looked a mess if i'm honest but i imagine it looked quite nice back then. We took all that up though and grass was put down so my little boy could play out safely.

Thanks,
Kerry.

[Spitfire]

Hi Kerry, I thought that might be the case. Americans always call the ground floor the first floor and I've had problems with my American friends describing floor levels.

Just re-reading Foot's book, he writes that room 6 was the large room above the dining room; you're quite right that room 4 is the small room at the front.

The rooms on the second floor (third level) were no 3 and 5, with no 5 being the normal room of Mrs Jones's daughter and room 3 occupied by a Yorkshire couple and the mother of one of them.

It is very possible and from what you have written very likely that the numbers have been swapped over the years.

[Spitfire]

Hi Kerry welcome to the forum,

As well as the green bath, which Hanratty identified, and the hat stand in the hall which obviously would be long gone, Hanratty also mentioned to his defence team and also to his parents, the existence of a tiled back yard, I was wondering if that was still around when you moved in?
For people who believe Hanratty was innocent, all of the above are irrefutable evidence that the man stayed there.
Regardless of weather Hanratty stayed in the attic room which incidentally would not have been permissible by the local laws of the day,(which Mrs Jones knew, but was nevertheless prepared to admit) he did SEE the bathtub, so other than proof that the dates of him staying at Ingledene, were wrong, he had a solid alibi.
Cheers Steve.

It's no use proving that Hanratty stayed at, or visited, Ingledene unless you can show that he stayed there on the night of 22 August 1961.

If the prosecution show that all the rooms in Ingledene were occupied by other people then Hanratty could not have stayed there on those dates.

BTW, do you know which room Hanratty stayed in?

[Kerry1983]

Hi Kerry, I thought that might be the case. Americans always call the ground floor the first floor and I've had problems with my American friends describing floor levels.

Just re-reading Foot's book, he writes that room 6 was the large room above the dining room; you're quite right that room 4 is the small room at the front.

The rooms on the second floor (third level) were no 3 and 5, with no 5 being the normal room of Mrs Jones's daughter and room 3 occupied by a Yorkshire couple and the mother of one of them.

It is very possible and from what you have written very likely that the numbers have been swapped over the years.

I don't know why it occurs to me to call them that, i'm definitely not American, haha. Sorry for the confusion.

How strange that they would have been numbered in that way originally, it doesn't make much sense why they would be.
They're now numbered 1-6 in the order that you would come to them if you were walking up the stairs. I've just been up to check The old bathroom still has the outline of the private letters on the door too. I've always had plans to get new doors as these are not in the best condition but just never got round to it.

[moste]

Hi Nick,

Yes it does have the skylight, i just would never have described it as an attic room. It's next door to one of the other bedrooms on the top floor (it's just another room to us). Maybe the skylight has led to it being called the attic room?

Yes that sounds like a plausible reason to me, especially if it was a private bathroom for the homeowners use only. She could have put him in there and knew he wouldn't have been 'in the way' as the other guests didn't use it?
From what i can gather, the guests had their own private sink in their rooms and they shared use of the single toilet which was on the second floor.

Yes this makes sense. As an electrical apprentice working out of town in Leicestershire (Blaby) for 5 months, and Birmingham (Erdington)for another 5 months, between 1965 and '67 we stayed at 4 different B&Bs in Leic. and 3 in the Birm. area, and all we had available was wash sinks and toilets, in all of them.

[Kerry1983]

Yes this makes sense. As an electrical apprentice working out of town in Leicestershire (Blaby) for 5 months, and Birmingham (Erdington)for another 5 months, between 1965 and '67 we stayed at 4 different B&Bs in Leic. and 3 in the Birm. area, and all we had available was wash sinks and toilets, in all of them.

Oh really, well that could explain that then. If Hanratty stayed in a room on the first floor then there would have been no reason for him to venture further upstairs and therefore wouldn't have seen the green bath.
However, as all the actual bedrooms were full, it seems that he was indeed put into their private bathroom on the second floor to spend the night. Mrs Jones herself admits that there was a bed put in there. As it wasn't one of their actual rooms then his stay wasn't recorded and that's why the date can't be proved. He could well have been there on the actual night then.

But then doesn't he say that woke up and looked out of the window which overlooked the rear courtyard? This would be impossible from the bathroom. Did he stay 2 nights and was moved to an actual room on the second night, after spending the first in the bathroom?

[moste]

Fascinating first hand knowledge of ex Ingledene

I have a thought... James slept IN the bathtub, and along with the landlady was too embarrassed to say so. knowing that the exact room he stayed overnight in, was completely irrelevant only that he spent the night, was enough

[moste]

Please forgive me if this has been covered previously but I haven't had a chance to read through all 250 pages of this thread.

The two competing theories seem to be:

1) Hanratty (small time thug/thief) who was known to work mostly in urban/suburban areas somehow randomly found himself in a rural area while he had a gun and ammunition on him. Seeing a couple parked in a car 'making out' (as the kids say), he decides on a bit of carjacking which then leads to murder, rape, and attempted murder none of which he's ever done before (to our knowledge).

2) The family of Gregsten or Storie hires an unknown person (maybe Hanratty, maybe Alphon) to break up the adulterous couple by scaring them. Finding them in a field, the person threatens and then kills Gregsten (after weird highjinks) and then decides that a bit of rape would go down well before attempting to kill Storie- thereby destroying at least one of the people he was supposedly being paid by the family of.

Seriously??!! Neither of those make any sense!

Hi Penhalion.
You may well be covering some old ground ,but regardless of that, you echo my sentiments precisely.
I believe there is much, much more to all of this than meets the eye.

Love being on the west coast of N. America, you get to have the last word of the day.

[Spitfire]

Fascinating first hand knowledge of ex Ingledene

I have a thought... James slept IN the bathtub, and along with the landlady was too embarrassed to say so. knowing that the exact room he stayed overnight in, was completely irrelevant only that he spent the night, was enough

Well if Hanratty continued to lie after signing the statement prepared by Sherrard that he must be "absolutely truthful" about his alibi, then he deserved all he got.

At least when he died by hanging he would not have the stain on his character
of having slept the night in a bathroom.

[NickB]

Did he stay 2 nights and was moved to an actual room on the second night, after spending the first in the bathroom?

This is what Woffinden suggested in his book.

If Foot visited Ingledene and saw that the green bathroom was at the front of the house, it was disingenuous of him to propose that Hanratty slept there because it directly contradicted Hanratty's statement that his bedroom was at the back. Perhaps Woffinden realised this and tried to square the circle. But Hanratty had not said anything about moving to a different room on the second night.