Just where do we go from here?

[Ally]

Ally

Same old Ally, eh?

As opposed to whom? Are you saying you've undergone a radical personality shift in the last couple of years and you are a brand new and improved model? What precisely is the point of your last line?

And do I think that we need to invade those countries? No. I do believe we need to choke off all funding to those countries. It's a simple, and convenient means of going about it. Why precisely are we funding countries where these horrors are allowed to go on?

And I don't believe in immigration tolerance. If people want to come to any country, be it France, America, or the UK and keep the same practices, opinions and language they practiced in their old country, then they ought to stay in their country and enact the change they want there. I have said time and time again, that if I were to move to France or Thailand and expect everyone to speak English and refuse to adapt to the conditions and traditions of my adopted country, I would be considered an "ugly American" and rightly so. But people feel perfectly free to come here, change nothing about themselves and expect us to "respect their differences".

[Chris]

As opposed to whom?

?

Not as opposed to anyone. I'm saying you are still just the same as you ever were.

[Ally]

?

Not as opposed to anyone. I'm saying you are still just the same as you ever were.

Which is a statement of very little relevance. Who isn't the same as they ever were?

[Chris]

Which is a statement of very little relevance. Who isn't the same as they ever were?

People who change, I suppose.

[Smoking Joe]

Well, yeah.

big·ot·ry
[big-uh-tree]
noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

Synonyms
1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

A bigot never had to lynch a man to be a bigot. He had to show bias against a race, creed, religion, etc. Someone who acts on such prejudice is a criminal. As that's illegal.

And here's another one. Everyone is prejudiced about something. Positively or negatively, we all prejudge. And we have to. We don't even remotely have the time to judge every single person we meet on their individual merits. What differentiates bigots from those of us engaging in normal human behavior is that simple anthropological prejudice doesn't resist a challenge. If I judge that I'm not going to like somebody based on some characteristic they exhibit, and they try to change my mind, I won't dislike them despite proving to be a genuinely enjoyable person. If a black guy tries to convince a Klansman that he's a good guy, the Klansman will never allow the black man to succeed, be he the incarnation of Jesus. Bigotry.

Is Islam the enemy? No, because if it was, all of it's followers would be the enemy, and they simply aren't. Nor is there any evidence at all that Islam is getting any bigger, or drafting more converts. So it isn't spreading. The unchallengeable belief that both ideas are true is both bigoted and just factually incorrect. So if someone calls you a bigot for that, it's because you are being a bigot about that. IE: You will not accept anyone else's view on that subject.

But I'll throw you a bone on this. Islam isn't the enemy, (because ideas being formless notions rarely are) nor is it spreading. But it got a whole lot louder relatively quickly, and if it isn't spreading, it certainly is moving. Figure out why it's moving and you've figured out the real problem.

Might be useful if you actually read what I wrote,instead of assuming what I thought,or parroting what 1 or 2 posters also assumed I wrote.
I do not have complete intolerance and contempt for any creed or religion that doesnt correspond with my own.....Unless of course that creed,cult or religion advocates death to any unbeliever,I think contempt for any such creed,cult or religion who advocates such is quite understandable.If that is criminal behaviour ,then so be it.
Silly remarks like a Klansman ,(every Klansman I presume) would never under any circumstances would give a Black man the time of day. You have been to Klan H.Q ....right? You know every Klansman that exists ,or ever has existed ..right? If your answers instead are No ,them maybe you might follow your own advice and refrain from generalising .
I didnt at any time say EVERY (e-ver-ee) muslim was a terrorist. But the fantatics rule -the fantics march - the fanatics behead,honor kill and the rest. One day your peaceful muslim will wake up and find the fanatics own him .They allready do in many places.
There is,contrary to your opinion,plenty of evidence to show Islam is growing, not just in this country but in Africa, Asia also .And its growing in influence by the use of bomb, machete and garden spade.
Much as the warnings about Nazi Germany were ignored in the early years ,And yes ,there were some who warned of that threat at the time who were villified and labelled anti German and for all I know bigots too,by people of the peculiar mindset which has manifested itself here on this thread.
One doesnt need to own a crystal Ball to see which way this is going,or where it will lead if we arent very careful.

[Roy Corduroy]

Islamic science was far ahead of European science and medicine for centuries, also mathematics.

No Phil, that knowledge came from their Christian slaves.

Roy

[DVV]

For sure, it couldn't come from Franck Ribéry.

[Smoking Joe]

No Phil, that knowledge came from their Christian slaves.

Roy

You are in danger of having your name put on the Bigots List for that piece of Anti Muslim propaganda. If you are really fortunate you might even be accused of "Fanning the flames"

[Phil H]

No Phil, that knowledge came from their Christian slaves.

Given the fantastic generalisations being thrown around in this thread, I'd appreciate a source for yuor assertion please. As far as I am aware, what I said is true.

Phil

[DVV]

Oh yes. As true as Al-Andalus being a wonderful place, so peaceful and tolerant.

[Chris]

One day your peaceful muslim will wake up and find the fanatics own him .

But what do you actually mean by that?

Take Britain as an example. What exactly are you claiming is going to happen to ordinary Muslims in Britain 'one day'? And why do you think so?

[DVV]

I'd appreciate a source for yuor assertion please.
Phil

What about reading books, for a start ?

[Smoking Joe]

After considerable reflection, I am going to speak personally - that is about myself, not getting personal with others.

Speaking as a gay man, I see no reason why I, as a taxpaying, law-abiding, moral citizen, should not have exactly the same rights as any other citizen, or why any other citizen should have the right to judge me or discriminate against me on the grounds of my sexuality.

If I ran a guest house, I would not dream of asking a heterosexual couple what they did in the bedroom - it is entirely their affair (assuming one is not a child or being forced) - so why should anyone ask me? I often meet a straight male friend for a weekend away and we share a twin bedded room - it make sense in cost terms. Why should I have to explain myself to anyone because THEY are prejudiced against me? It's THEIR problem not mine.

Why in an equal society should I not be able to marry if I wished (I don't! ) rather than having to be satisfied with a second level arrangement? I am told "marriage" is about the ability to have children, so why are older people or infertile couples allowed to marry? Why should two loving men or women in a long-standing relationship be discriminated against when a straight couple could marry for lust and divorce in six months?

WHO (in today's world) is to tell me I am immoral, wrong or take a view that somehow I am unequal? On what grounds?





Phil

Phil H,
So you are gay, personally I say "so what-who cares?" Why you feel the need to tell others is another question. As for a gay person being discriminated against ,well.....others have rights too, to be indifferent to that fact, to treat others equally regardless of their sexuality,or to feel disgusted by it. The B&B owner (and I stress the word owner) in my view has the MORAL right to allow entrance ,refuse entrance to anyone. And of course that particular issue was not so much regarding gay people renting a room as regards sharing same bed.They were offered seperate beds. It was,quite possibly a manufactured incident ,as these two returned another time and tried again to involve B&B owners in a legal dispute. Gay marriage will Im sure face similar issues."why wont you (the vicar) marry me and fred in this church? its cos were gay isnt it? Im suing you!" Notwithstanding the supposed right of vicars not to marry people of same sex,this issue will become a hotbed of prosecutions, compensation claims by any number of "professional " opportunist "couples" out to make a fast buck. You want your rights,others want their rights,what happens when one persons rights impinge on anothers rights. Are we all to be the same? same views? same likes?
But as regarding the rights issues and Islam ,the creed you seem to so admire ,ask yourself this how long would you last if you were to stand outside a Mosque with a sparkler in your ass? Think of that before you have the temerity to imply,openly state or suggest that others on this site are Bigots.

[Errata]

Might be useful if you actually read what I wrote,instead of assuming what I thought,or parroting what 1 or 2 posters also assumed I wrote.
I do not have complete intolerance and contempt for any creed or religion that doesnt correspond with my own.....Unless of course that creed,cult or religion advocates death to any unbeliever,I think contempt for any such creed,cult or religion who advocates such is quite understandable.If that is criminal behaviour ,then so be it.
Silly remarks like a Klansman ,(every Klansman I presume) would never under any circumstances would give a Black man the time of day. You have been to Klan H.Q ....right? You know every Klansman that exists ,or ever has existed ..right? If your answers instead are No ,them maybe you might follow your own advice and refrain from generalising .
I didnt at any time say EVERY (e-ver-ee) muslim was a terrorist. But the fantatics rule -the fantics march - the fanatics behead,honor kill and the rest. One day your peaceful muslim will wake up and find the fanatics own him .They allready do in many places.
There is,contrary to your opinion,plenty of evidence to show Islam is growing, not just in this country but in Africa, Asia also .And its growing in influence by the use of bomb, machete and garden spade.
Much as the warnings about Nazi Germany were ignored in the early years ,And yes ,there were some who warned of that threat at the time who were villified and labelled anti German and for all I know bigots too,by people of the peculiar mindset which has manifested itself here on this thread.
One doesnt need to own a crystal Ball to see which way this is going,or where it will lead if we arent very careful.

Okay. This is becoming something of a train wreck, my fault entirely since I was responding to your response to a post I made that in fact was not referring to you. So things got jumbled. Let me try and clean this up.

The statement that "Islam is the enemy" is a bigoted statement, in that it is a narrow minded and biased view. It applies specifics to the general, as well as implying that they are the biggest and only problem we have going, both ideas being of debatable worth. "Certain followers of Islam are one of our enemies" would be a more factual statement.

Did I know what you meant? Yeah I did. But you talked about the bar being lowered on what is or is not a bigot, and since one of the major indicators of being a bigot is talking (or typing) like a bigot, my point is that part of not being seen as a bigot is choosing your words with care.

I do not know every Klansman. I have been to "Klan HQ" several times. It's about 20 minutes from my house. Unfortunately I have dealt with many Klansmen, I know the oaths they take, I know the penalties for those who break those oaths. Those who believe in those oaths (as opposed to those who see it as a kind of Elk Club for the south) would likely literally give a black man the time of day. But they will give no black man the opportunity to prove that their beliefs are wrong. They will not befriend black men. There is nothing anyone can say that will change their minds. Thus, they are bigots.

You did not say every Muslim was a terrorist. That part was directed elsewhere. You answered to it, and then made the comment about bigotry, so the responses got intertwined.

I don't have a "peaceful Muslim". It's not like a pet. I have many Muslim friends. And in this little corner of the world, they have been more peace loving, less judgmental, and generally all around more kind than a majority of their Christian counterparts. And still are. I'm a Jew. It's still foreign here. We non Christians tend to stick together. I have several Hindu friends as well, and a curious number of pagans given I live in rural Tennessee. Some of my friends cannot be radicalized. Do you think my lesbian best friend is going to welcome Sharia Law? Cause that's gonna work out well for her and her Christian blond haired/ blue eyed wife. Some of my friends are angry about the way they are treated. I'm angry too, but we aren't talking about radicalized Jews. They came to this country to escape the radicals, and they are beaten, raped, murdered, and terrorized by the people who were supposed to support their decision to flee radical Islam. And in the most confused act of bigotry I have ever seen, someone spray painted "Towel head Go Home Or Die" and a cross on my friends house. She's Tibetan. And Christian. And this was in 1996, so we aren't talking about post 9/11 rage. Could my angry friends be radicalized? Could they become violent? A few could, yeah. But not by Muslims. If they kill a bunch of white boys it won't be to find favor with Allah. It will be because they are tired of taking the white boy's ****.

And in a confession that I am not proud of and never really speak of, I have become violent. I just ******* snapped when I was 17 and I hurt someone badly, and I mutilated him. And I paid for it and I got help, but what the hell did he think was going to happen when he decided to make it his hobby to make me afraid of him? How many times did he think I was going to let him hit me, or cut me, or humiliate me, or damage my car and my parent's house? He carved a mockery of Hebrew letters on my chest with a box cutter. And no one cared. So I carved "Rapist" on his forehead. And I wish I was sorrier for doing it than I am, but I'm not. So I get why someone becomes violent when they are bullied and frightened and society tells them that if they fight back then they are the bad guy. It's not right, and it certainly doesn't make the situation better, but I get it. So maybe treating good Muslims like terrorists isn't the way to keep them from becoming violent. Treating me like I was personally responsible for the death of a potentially fictional character from 2000 years ago certainly didn't make me a meek and good girl.

And in the end, what the hell can we do about it anyway? We aren't going to withdraw from the region. It's where we get our oil. We aren't going to give in to their demands, we aren't going to stop Westernizing the region, we can't leave refugees there to be murdered. Which puts us right where we are now. Which leaves us in the unenviable position of just trying not to make more enemies than we have to. And we really aren't good at that either. So... we live like Israel. Or we live like Richard the Lionheart and we kill them all and let god sort it out. But if we do that we have to get rid of radicals of all religions, and I have a hard time seeing people being okay with Marines taking down Churches in the Midwest US, or storming the Vatican for what's happening in Africa. Or we could accept that this isn't about religion. Religion convinces a man it's okay to strap on a bomb, but it's not why he's strapping on the bomb. It's about Imperialism and resources. It's about respecting sovereignty no matter what they may have that we want. And in another fifty years, they will sort it out and it will be on to the next group that hates us. I'm betting central Africa, but that's me. This is a war. And it has been since the mid 60's, we just sort of ignored it. But it doesn't matter because we aren't going to do the only thing we can do to alleviate the problems.

[Smoking Joe]

But what do you actually mean by that?

Take Britain as an example. What exactly are you claiming is going to happen to ordinary Muslims in Britain 'one day'? And why do you think so?

GO TO POST 3 -1st page-by me . There are many more examples throughout History.