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-   -   Same motive = same killer (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10520)

John G 10-08-2017 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisherman (Post 431625)
John G tells me that there is no connection between dismemberment killings and sadism.

The funny thing is that I have never said there was. I said that there was a connection between abduction killings and sadism.

But surely you would accept that most dismemberment victims are abducted? The Torso victims certainly were. Anyway, I'll respond in more detail when time permits.

Abby Normal 10-08-2017 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John G (Post 431630)
But surely you would accept that most dismemberment victims are abducted? The Torso victims certainly were. Anyway, I'll respond in more detail when time permits.

abducted? as in forcibly taken to his place?

I highly doubt it. they were more than likely lured their, probably as a place for an act of prostitution with the killer, or maybe promise of work of some sort.
the only difference in this regard to the ripper was that it was the man who led the way. same basic ruse though.

Fisherman 10-08-2017 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John G (Post 431630)
But surely you would accept that most dismemberment victims are abducted? The Torso victims certainly were.

Actually, John, I took great care not to say that they were. It applies that they may have come freely with the killer to his bolthole, and then they would not have been abducted at all. If we reason that Jack posed as a punter, then why would we not think that the torso killer may have done the same? "Hello, luvī, how about coming home with me and earning a shilling?"

Are most dismemberment victims abducted victims? I donīt think so. My guess is that there will be a fair amount of unpremeditated murders amongst them - spouses killing their viwes and realizing that they cannot carry them down the staircases on their shoulders, and so on.

I do see the logic of the suggestion and how you reason though, and yes, part of the dismemberment murders will be women who have been abducted/lured/persuaded to go with a killer to his bolthole, after which they have been subjected to sadism and ensuing murder and dismemberment.

I would not want to try and guess who the proportions are divided, though.

Do you agree that it seems that neither Jack nor the Torso killer will have been sadists?

Fisherman 10-08-2017 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abby Normal (Post 431631)
abducted? as in forcibly taken to his place?

I highly doubt it. they were more than likely lured their, probably as a place for an act of prostitution with the killer, or maybe promise of work of some sort.
the only difference in this regard to the ripper was that it was the man who led the way. same basic ruse though.

You beat me to it by a whole minute, Abby! :)

Herlock Sholmes 10-08-2017 06:57 AM

Surely the most obvious, and important, difference is that the ripper killed and mutilated 'there and then.' His method was to approach, engage, kill then mutilate. All part of one action. Why connect such different methods?

Fisherman 10-08-2017 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes (Post 431634)
Surely the most obvious, and important, difference is that the ripper killed and mutilated 'there and then.' His method was to approach, engage, kill then mutilate. All part of one action. Why connect such different methods?

The torso man was perhaps about approach, engage, take home, kill then mutilate, Herlock. The true indicators of a shared identity lies in what happened to the victims. If both methods worked, why abstain from one of them?

If a killer cuts away the abominal wall in large panes, then that takes precedence over WHERE he does it, on the street or in a bolthole.

I also think there may be an element of narcissism involved - the posing of the victims in the Ripper series, as well as the bold dumping of the torsos looks like a cry for attention to me. And the Ripper series yielded more of that commodity.

Of course, Nichols was not posed, but ... ;)

Fisherman 10-08-2017 07:07 AM

Once more, Iīd like the discussion to focus on how it seems that serialists who have the aim to procure a body/bodies have a ritualistic agenda.

Are there examples to the opposite? Serialists who murder quickly and with no sadism in order to procure a body - and who have no ritualistic agenda at all?

Suggestions?

Abby Normal 10-08-2017 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes (Post 431634)
Surely the most obvious, and important, difference is that the ripper killed and mutilated 'there and then.' His method was to approach, engage, kill then mutilate. All part of one action. Why connect such different methods?

Hi HS

the MO was actually probably very similar-rusing the victim to a place where he could kill them and do what he wanted to do and get what body parts he needed.

The sig is also basically the same-post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.

The APPARENT difference between the two series is the dismemberment and disposal. But perhaps the torso victims were ones were he had access to a private place to carry out his fantasy and the ripper victims were ones were he didn't have access to his place and had to do it on the streets.

I mean just look at the similarities:
same time frame
same victimology
same location
post mortem mutilation
abdomen targeted
use of knife
body parts removed
probable ruse used to lure victims
unsolved
both ended same time
no overt attempt at hiding victims
specific similarities between Jackson, Kelly and chapman with large sections of skin flaps removed from abdomen.

and Fish has even more specific similarities.


I never even considered them related until I learned from Debra Arif that ALL the torso victims had post mortem mutilation to some extent.

Fisherman 10-08-2017 07:20 AM

Question:

If the very few examples we have of serialists who kill quickly in order to obtain access to a body all point to the killer having a ritualistic element behind his deeds - why would we not make the exact same assumption for Jack as well as for the torso killer?

Sam Flynn 10-08-2017 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisherman (Post 431642)
If the very few examples we have of serialists who kill quickly in order to obtain access to a body all point to the killer having a ritualistic element behind his deeds - why would we not make the exact same assumption for Jack as well as for the torso killer?

You've made quite a number of assumptions there, Fish, not all of which we can be sure are true.


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