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MysterySinger
06-25-2016, 11:26 AM
I doubt anything here is new to anyone but a search proved inconclusive as to whether these facts had received an airing.

From a search on Find My Past, the one newspaper report that refers to Aaron Kosminski is in relation to an un-muzzled dog and this was in 1889. There is mention here of his brother and of the name Abrahams. In fact they seem to have used both surnames.

According to the Casebook Suspect Guide on Kosminski:
“On 12 July 1890, he was admitted to the Mile End Town workhouse infirmary, from his brother Wolf’s residence at 3 Sion Square, Commercial Road East”.

In the 1892 Electoral Register, Woolf Abrahams is resident at 3 Sion Square so there is further evidence of their use of this surname. In 1888, Woolf Abrahams was at 62 Greenfield Street. In 1885, an Aaron Abrahams was at 58 Grove Street, St Botolph Without Aldgate – was this Kosminski?

This avenue has probably been explored previously so I have a question as to whether Woolf Abrahams, Woolf Kosminski and Wolek Lab Kosminski have been shown to be one and the same person? Does the Abrahams aspect open up any new seams for research on Aaron Kosminski at all?

Aldebaran
06-25-2016, 12:24 PM
Strictly speaking, there is no surname "Kosminski". The surnames of Poland are carefully documented as to what clan they belonged to. The name is "Kozminski" and this one even has a coat of arms. That name belongs to the JASTRZE-BIEC Clan of Poland. Arms granted in 999 and the Clan established 1319.

http://pioro.ca/?page_id=781

A Jew might have taken the name of Kozminski if he came from the town of Kozmin--of which there were several in various parts of Poland. Most Polish Jews did not have a surname like that, however. They had Germanic type last names. The Jews of Poland spoke Yiddish, an old German dialect mixed with Hebrew [they came to Poland from Germany, invited there by King Casimir]. Kozminski is a fancy, aristocratic-sounding name that someone in the family decided to adopt, just as director Roman Polanski's artist father took that surname--although the real family name was Liebling [meaning "darling"]. How's that for pedantic?

MysterySinger
06-25-2016, 01:54 PM
And in the UK they used the name Abrahams instead of Kosminski/Kozminski in this case. In addition, the Lubnowskis used the surname Cohen.

Woolf (Kozminski) obtianed naturalisation in 1887 under the name of Woolf Abrahams whereas his brother in law, Morris obtained it in the same year as Morris Lubnowski (even though he also used Cohen).

Thanks for your information Alderbaran.

Aldebaran
06-25-2016, 03:13 PM
And in the UK they used the name Abrahams instead of Kosminski/Kozminski in this case. In addition, the Lubnowskis used the surname Cohen.

Woolf (Kozminski) obtianed naturalisation in 1887 under the name of Woolf Abrahams whereas his brother in law, Morris obtained it in the same year as Morris Lubnowski (even though he also used Cohen).

Thanks for your information Alderbaran.

It's interesting. Why Kozminski and Lubnowski--those high-fallutin' names? Were they trying to pass for ethnic Poles at some point? In England? It's weird because, in Poland, only Jews who lived in big cities spoke Polish well and then usually with a Jewish accent unless they were highly educated persons. In rural Poland, the Jews lived in villages, didn't mix with Poles much and spoke only Yiddish. Or they might have spoken a broken Polish. I know it seems strange, but I knew such people, Holocaust survivors who came to live in America following the war. However, perhaps these 19th Century people figured a Brit wouldn't know one Polish immigrant from another.

BTW, look at the upper right hand corner of this file:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32275/page/2611/data.pdf

MysterySinger
06-25-2016, 03:44 PM
Yes that is interesting - Zetta Lubnowski is probably some relative of Aaron Kozminski - his sister Malka (Mathilda) married Mosiek (Morris) Lubnowsli/Cohen. Of course there may be no connection although Kozminski's mother was originally Golda Lubnowski I believe.

In the link to your original post, I notice that there is Kosminski listed, for example under LUBICZ. I'm probably mis-reading something.

Aldebaran
06-25-2016, 05:03 PM
Yes that is interesting - Zetta Lubnowski is probably some relative of Aaron Kozminski - his sister Malka (Mathilda) married Mosiek (Morris) Lubnowsli/Cohen. Of course there may be no connection although Kozminski's mother was originally Golda Lubnowski I believe.

In the link to your original post, I notice that there is Kosminski listed, for example under LUBICZ. I'm probably mis-reading something.

Nope, you read right. Ha! There really does seem to be a town called "Kosmin" in Poland, but it must be pretty tiny, as I have never heard of it. But here's a mystery solved, I think. Kosmin, as it happens, is in the province of Lublin Voivodeship. These people must have come from there and that's why one was called "Kosminski" and the other "Lubnowski", the first having the meaning of someone from Kosmin and the second someone from Lublin. But you can be assured that these were never the original family names. Those were Abrahams [or something near] and Cohen. There is an illustrious Jewish family of London, called Abrahams, originally named "Abramovitch". It produced a fine scholar, Professor Israel Abrahams, also a Chief Rabbi of Capetown eventually. A very great scholar and excellent writer was another Israel Abrahams of London, who wrote the book, "Jewish Life in the Middle Ages" [1896].

Eastern European Jews suffered plenty from anti-Semitism, which even resulted in deadly pogroms. Not quite knowing what they would find in Western Europe or England, the families adopted non-Jewish appearing names when they migrated west. But, it looks like one Kosminski was naturalized under his actual family name--Abrahams. When Aaron Kosminski was arrested for being in the company of a dog without a muzzle, his brother evidently thought he ought to come clean and tell the magistrate that Aaron's surname was actually Abrahams. I think that's what happened and that was why, in the 1920's, that lady also decided to give up the pretense and change her surname back to Cohen from Lubnowski.

MysterySinger
06-25-2016, 07:38 PM
Fascinating stuff.

Beowulf
06-25-2016, 09:30 PM
Just an odd thought but I wonder if Kosminski's dog had a taste for sweetmeats.

Aldebaran
06-25-2016, 09:35 PM
Fascinating and confusing. According to that clipping, first the brother said the name was not Kosminski but Abrahams. Then he supposedly stated that the name *should* be Kosminski but it was more convenient to go by Abrahams. Convenient where? In Whitechapel? I doubt it. Why would anybody care what the surname was there? Jewish people share a religion, but a surname doesn't mean much. They can be changed, shortened--whatever. Many of the Jews of London had Spanish and Portuguese surnames and their synagogue, called Bevis Marks, was older than that of any Polish or Russian immigrant congregation. My guess is "Kosminski" was a better sounding last name for a hair dresser and that's why Aaron kept it. Among surnames of Poland, the ones ending in "ski" are considered the most genteel of all. For two Jewish families, one actually called Kosminski and the other Lubnowski, two really Polish names, to become linked by marriage seems to me to be so highly unlikely as to be next to impossible. I have yet to see this myself in all my life among Polish or Ashkenazi Jews. Those are assumed names for sure. Now for one Abrahams to marry another Abrahams in a small village in Poland--that I could believe any time.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4611-consanguinity-among-jews

The above article appeared in 1906!

Elamarna
06-26-2016, 06:19 AM
Of course Aaron is the only member of his immediate family to be buried under the Kosminski name, I believe that is correct.

Steve

Paddy
06-26-2016, 03:36 PM
The following involved The Bell Club which was just off of Commercial Road at the top of Fieldgate street. I will have to look out the date for you as I do not have it to hand. I often wondered if they could have been talking about Aaron.


I tried to follow this up but I could not find mention this Abrahams again. The men charged were George McLeod, Edward Cohen, Joseph Garcia, Phillip Michals, Edward Moss Michals, Rueben Michals and William Beaver all similar ages as Aaron.

Pat............

The Good Michael
06-26-2016, 05:11 PM
Nope, you read right. Ha! There really does seem to be a town called "Kosmin" in Poland, but it must be pretty tiny, as I have never heard of it. But here's a mystery solved, I think. Kosmin, as it happens, is in the province of Lublin Voivodeship. These people must have come from there and that's why one was called "Kosminski" and the other "Lubnowski", the first having the meaning of someone from Kosmin and the second someone from Lublin. But you can be assured that these were never the original family names. Those were Abrahams [or something near] and Cohen. There is an illustrious Jewish family of London, called Abrahams, originally named "Abramovitch". It produced a fine scholar, Professor Israel Abrahams, also a Chief Rabbi of Capetown eventually. A very great scholar and excellent writer was another Israel Abrahams of London, who wrote the book, "Jewish Life in the Middle Ages" [1896].

Eastern European Jews suffered plenty from anti-Semitism, which even resulted in deadly pogroms. Not quite knowing what they would find in Western Europe or England, the families adopted non-Jewish appearing names when they migrated west. But, it looks like one Kosminski was naturalized under his actual family name--Abrahams. When Aaron Kosminski was arrested for being in the company of a dog without a muzzle, his brother evidently thought he ought to come clean and tell the magistrate that Aaron's surname was actually Abrahams. I think that's what happened and that was why, in the 1920's, that lady also decided to give up the pretense and change her surname back to Cohen from Lubnowski.

Jesus of Nazarath. Saul of Tarsus...Hebrew concepts used by Jewish people.

Mike

Aldebaran
06-26-2016, 05:12 PM
Probably half the men at the club were called Abrahams. Just kidding--but I think it was probably quite a common surname. I mentioned a couple of prominent Londoners by that name--but forgot Harold Abrahams, the man upon whose career the film "Chariots of Fire" was based. This article strikes me as having a bit of an anti-Semitic bias. There were such things as Zionist organizations and German Jews were the most ardent Zionists. That's what the "club" might have been about. It seems rather odd that two girls would have gone looking for an Abrahams. "'Ere, Abrahams, was you interferin' wif our Bessie?" It may be have been that the girls and the "passers-by" had all gone to heckle the Jews and got more than they bargained for. You never know.

GUT
06-26-2016, 05:39 PM
Jesus of Nazarath. Saul of Tarsus...Hebrew concepts used by Jewish people.

Mike

And the same middle name, along with Joan of Arc and many others:lol:

Paddy
06-26-2016, 05:42 PM
I think it was a bit more than that..... more a riot, as you can see in this following article.,
I could only find 11 Abrahams in the 1891 census searching using the criteria of born 1964 + or - 5, and male....
It shows how high the tensions were at that time....

Pat.....

Aldebaran
06-26-2016, 05:52 PM
Craps-shooting Zionists?

https://www.casinolistings.com/sites/casinolistings.com/files/streetcraps.jpg

GUT
06-26-2016, 06:00 PM
I think it was a bit more than that..... more a riot, as you can see in this following article.,
I could only find 11 Abrahams in the 1891 census searching using the criteria of born 1964 + or - 5, and male....
It shows how high the tensions were at that time....

Pat.....

Surprised you found that many in 1891' born between 1959 and 1969 :rofl:

Pcdunn
06-26-2016, 08:59 PM
Surprised you found that many in 1891' born between 1959 and 1969 :rofl:

It was probably just a sort of timey-wimey, wibbley-wobbley time travel thing, GUT...

Paddy
06-27-2016, 05:28 PM
Oops I think I am getting old and daft !
Pat........

Aldebaran
06-27-2016, 06:12 PM
Oops I think I am getting old and daft !
Pat........

Naw, you guys are cool. That's why this site is so interesting--so many intelligent and informed people to talk to.

GUT
06-27-2016, 06:49 PM
Oops I think I am getting old and daft !
Pat........

Nah don't believe that. Just one of those typos I could tell you how many times I right my birth year instead of the current year when it's my birthday or the year we got married instead of the current year on our wedding anniversary. Sort of thing that's easy to do, and then you remember when it was 1964 and you wrote 1964 (at least I do, sort of) but hopefully never wrote 1864 in 1864.

If you get me drift.

GUT
06-27-2016, 06:51 PM
It was probably just a sort of timey-wimey, wibbley-wobbley time travel thing, GUT...

Then we could say case closed.

If we had that timey-wimey, wibbley-wobbley time travel thinamyjig.

The Good Michael
06-27-2016, 09:16 PM
Never zionists. These people didn't believe in God.


Mike

Errata
06-28-2016, 09:47 AM
Never zionists. These people didn't believe in God.


Mike

What the... ?

DarkPassenger
03-20-2017, 11:45 AM
Had to post this somewhere.

If ever there was evidence of the mix-up between Aaron Kosminski and Nathan Kaminsky, my computer is now auto-correcting "Kosminski" with "Kaminsky!"

Varqm
07-09-2017, 09:01 PM
Yes dogs need their mouth/tongue free.

Mcnaughten,Swanson, Anderson had all those years to write about the big evidence against kosminski and they return back to solitary vice, eating from the gutter,etc.,all of which are not crimes and has nothing to do with kosminski as a murderer.It's plain to see that they had nothing strong.
Pulling a knife on his sister is far away from being a murderer.

On Anderson's "he was positively idenified",it has to be known what was the basis,did the witness specifically saidI recognize him but would not identify him because he was a jew?
Was it a tell/hunch/interpretaion ,did the witnes's demeanor changed when looking at one suspect but would not identify him ,did the witness not
able to identify the suspect in the first place and was reluctant to identify the suspect,because even though he was somewhat similar,he cold not identify anybody in the first place.
Until then it can't be used against Kosminski,if he was indeed in the Seaside ID or anybody.

There is no choice but to label kosminski innocent.

robhouse
10-05-2017, 09:04 AM
If I remember correctly, the name "Abrahams" was not terribly common in the streets around there, according to the records. I can try to look into my notes. (This concerning the Bell Club riot) which always interested me.

Rob House