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MayBea
01-08-2014, 04:09 PM
Now for something completely different! Or not...

A mystery orphan born in 1887 with family ties to Whitechapel in 1887, mother's name the same as one of Jack's victims, claimed the Salvation Army "saved his neck"...What do you think?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7863

MayBea
01-09-2014, 08:42 PM
Re: the Paternity Question
With a birthday of September 1st and a conception date in or around December 1886 or January '87, we're looking at someone like Joseph Flemming. Or, if you believe in the Diego Laurenz/Mr. Lawrence/Maybrick theory, then James Maybrick.

We have no picture of Joe Flemming, so I'm comparing the pictures of Jack with James.

MayBea
01-11-2014, 10:09 AM
Here is the 1861 Census putting Jack Wilson's uncle's sister-in-law, Angelica Gould, in the residence of a cotton broker. The uncle's name is Henry Kelly, married to Margaret Gould.

Agelica's daughter, Margaret Rawlinson, was living on Thrawl Street in February 1887, according to her marriage certificate.

I've looked at some of the arguments against Jack Wilson, and the main one seems to be that Joe Barnett would have mentioned a pregnancy and a birth. But that is to disregard all the newspaper reports that he lived with Mary, quote/unquote, "spasmodically".

GUT
01-11-2014, 02:00 PM
G'Day

But I wonder how many others had a Kelly relative, I'm stupid, but just don't get the argument.

GUT

MayBea
01-12-2014, 09:27 AM
Thanks, GUT, for the reply. It is confusing if you don't know the background of the argument.

Jack Wilson's mother registered his (Sept. 1st) birth in Liverpool on the 24th of October, 1887. (She reported his father to be her husband, Robert Wilson, who died of TB less than a year and a half later.) To me, all this does do, definitively, is put his mother in Liverpool on the 24th of October.

Liverpool is what--a two hour train ride from London? It's not a trip beyond the means of someone living in Whitechapel to take without anyone knowing about it, namely Barnett.

Thanks again for wading in. You got guts, for sure.

MayBea
01-12-2014, 11:30 AM
I've uploaded the image of William John Wilson's birth certificate registered in Liverpool

For comparison, I recently ordered and received his sister Christina's birth certificate.

She was born 7 years earlier in 1880 and, I don't know about you, but I see numerous differences and irregularities that make me think the situation with William was unusual and suspicious.

GUT
01-12-2014, 03:18 PM
G'Day MayBea

Perhaps f I'd seen that his mother was "Mary Jane" before you posted the certificate I wouldn't have been so daft.

GUT

GUT
01-12-2014, 03:19 PM
But I'd never seen that mentioned before. My Bad. :oops:

MayBea
01-13-2014, 01:23 PM
I guess I should have mentioned Mary Jane at the beginning but I was too focused on the paternity.

I'm sure this Mary Kelly child was on the forum prior to the crash but not since. The forum seemed lacking without it, so I thought I'd bring it up.

Who else would do it but us novice constables and detectives? We got nothing to lose.

MayBea
01-13-2014, 01:35 PM
As for the discrepancies that I see, there are two big ones:

1. The lengths of time before reporting the births: Christina 9 days, William 54 days.

2. The difference in reported occupation of the father: first Baker and second Baker Journeyman.

Why Journeyman? He always lived in the same neighbourhood and he died of tuberculosis less than a year and a half later in the Workhouse.

Did the registrar ask her about the 'alleged' father's whereabouts? Is it possible she had no idea where he was because she hadn't seen him in 6 years?

MayBea
01-14-2014, 02:53 PM
1. The lengths of time before reporting the births: Christina 9 days, William 54 days.

54 days was 12 more than the legal limit of 42.

As a result of the Births and Deaths Act 1874, registration was made compulsory from 1875 ... Births had to be registered within 42 days at the district or sub-district office, usually by the mother or father. If more days had elapsed but it was less than 3 months since the birth, the Superintendent Registrar had to be present...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales

MayBea
01-14-2014, 02:55 PM
2. The difference in reported occupation of the father: first Baker and second Baker Journeyman.
The term Journeyman seems to have a different definition than I thought. It's more like a day labourer, journey being derived from the French for day.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/47377-Journeyman

But I still think it has a connotation of traveling to work.

Bridewell
01-14-2014, 03:13 PM
The term Journeyman seems to have a different definition than I thought. It's more like a day labourer, journey being derived from the French for day.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/47377-Journeyman

But I still think it has a connotation of traveling to work.

A journeyman baker could be one who travels about but the more likely meaning is the alternative:

A Journeyman Baker being one who has completed his apprenticeship but is not yet qualified as a Master Baker.

GUT
01-14-2014, 03:18 PM
G'Day Bridewell and MayBea

A Journeyman Baker being one who has completed his apprenticeship but is not yet qualified as a Master Baker. Employed as day labor. [ie not in permanent employment]

That is the generally accepted definition.

MayBea
01-14-2014, 05:18 PM
Thank you, Bridewell and GUT.

I'll agree with your assessments and I drop suggestion #2 that Journeyman is a suspicious entry on the birth registry.

I still don't agree with others' assessments that the certificate is proof of paternity, and proof that the mother was in Liverpool for two months from the birth to the registration, and/or that Barnett would necessarily have mentioned it.

Might I mention that Jack Wilson was very talented musically. Family claims he could play every instrument by the age of ten, a claim similarly made of Sir Arthur Sullivan.

The talent and the name change to Arthur Sullivan is what led to earlier suggestions that the father was Sir Arthur Sullivan, famous patron of prostitutes.

Paddy
01-14-2014, 07:17 PM
John Wilson born Everton St Ambrose 3rd October 1888
to Robert (a baker) and Mary of 24 Amos street

Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
Marys dad is John a Joiner....

Pat.........................................

Paddy
01-14-2014, 08:40 PM
Ancestry military records
Sullivan Arthur
Loyal North Lancs Reg
Attested as a Group 7 Bakers Assistant 1917 Reg no 32915,
Address Ivyleigh ?brook Liverpool
age 30 years 1 month.

Transfer to Royal Army medical Corps 1818 Reg no 142292
Next of Kin: brother Thomas Sullivan

Letter 1923 address Liverpool mentions 13th Com?, scottish com?
Damaged Thumb in war
Received Victory Medal

May not be him but he Liverpool address, Name, Bakers assistant and medical connections fit

Pat.............................

Paddy
01-14-2014, 09:21 PM
Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one

Pat................................

MayBea
01-14-2014, 10:48 PM
Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
Marys dad is John a Joiner....
Pat, this is the correct marriage. Robert is listed as a baker.

The Robert, baker, you found married to a Mary who gave birth to a John in October 1888 are the wrong ones. They are still on Amos St. with Mary's parents in 1891. Their last name is Matthews, not Kelly. John is missing.

1891 Census
Liverpool
24 Amos St

Joseph Matthews lorry driver b Ireland
Mary Matthews wife b Scotland
Robert Wilson son in law baker b Liverpool
Mary Wilson wife b Liverpool

MayBea
01-14-2014, 10:55 PM
Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one...
The name change to Arthur Sullivan did not occur until his marriage in London in 1919. He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.

If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return. He was seriously injured but I don't know if that would warrant a name change and a denial of being a Wilson after his retirement as a soldier.

Paddy
01-15-2014, 02:20 PM
Did you ever consider the Edith Wilson baptised 1888 in Everton st Chrysostom Liverpool, as a sister for your chap?
She was brought in an baptised by a man called David Ingrams? in 1888
but her mother and father were called Robert and Mary.
There was an Edith Wilson in the Ripley Hospital in 1891 census aged 11.
Did you find what happened to Christina?

I found the following info on a Ripley Hospital website

Ripley St Thomas School began life as Ripley Hospital, an endowed school founded by Mrs. Julia Ripley in memory of her husband, Thomas Ripley, who was a native of Lancaster and a merchant of Liverpool. The school buildings and grounds are most attractive, occupying an elevated site giving open views to the City of Lancaster and the Lake District hills beyond. It was opened on the 3 November, 1864 "amid great public rejoicing". Originally endowed for the education of an equal number of boys and girls - altogether 300 in number - the parents of whom had to have lived for at least 2 years immediately preceding the death of the father either within 15 miles of Lancaster Priory, or 7 miles of Liverpool Cathedral.

I also read that the Salvation Army were active in Liverpool.

Pat............................

MayBea
01-15-2014, 02:45 PM
No, I never considered Edith Wilson. William only claimed Christina as his sister.

Christina went into the Fazakerley Cottage Homes in 1890 and then got married in 1899 to Robert Ironside and moved to Scotland.
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/14555.6/mb.ashx

You're right about the Salvation Army operating in Liverpool, even in the 1880s. So William could have been referring to the Sally Ann there instead of in Whitechapel.

Penhalion
01-16-2014, 07:43 AM
I don't find the delay in reporting the birth to be significant, even if it went beyond the legal parameters. My father was born at home in 1920 and didn't get a birth certificate until he needed one to start grade school. This wasn't in some small rural town either, he was born and raised in Chicago. If John was born in the home, then they might not have gotten around to registering his birth until quite some time afterwards. An interesting question would be if there are similar delays in reporting which are evident in other children born in that area in the general time frame.

MayBea
01-16-2014, 08:40 AM
I ordered a couple of incorrect birth certificates when I was looking for William John Wilson's. They are from London in 1883 and Lancaster in '84 because I thought he might be older and might be born outside of Liverpool. I also found a Liverpool certificate from 1896 on Google images.

The delays in reporting are 9 days and 42 days and 44 days.

So it looks like the new parents wait until right up to the legal limit of 42 and go over. Although this is not a representative sample, it looks like you might be right, Penhalion. 54 days might not be significant.

MayBea
01-16-2014, 10:33 AM
Here is the 1861 Census putting Jack Wilson's uncle's sister-in-law, Angelica Gould, in the residence of a cotton broker. The uncle's name is Henry Kelly, married to Margaret Gould.
In the course of my research, I asked a living relative of Liverpool cotton broker, Augustus Agelasto, if there were any Ripper tales in his family and he said he hadn't heard of any.

William John Kelly married the alleged goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon. Her family were certainly servants of Carnarvon, based on Census records putting her aunt and uncle, Elizabeth Ryan and Pierre (Fund, sic) Funel, with Lady Carnarvon at Pixton Park in 1891.

We can believe that Ripper stories were bandied about by the Carnarvons since sources put the Royal Conspiracy originating with one of their relatives, Caroline Acland.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=FW8rAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=caroline+acland+stowell&source=bl&ots=ue4yVtJND5&sig=lLCeHkoCOafEazsYvy_Ulb0h1Mg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xhTYUtS1B8PmyQHMkoDYDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caroline%20acland%20stowell&f=false

MayBea
01-16-2014, 12:43 PM
Here is a thread identifying a woman matching Mary Kelly's newspaper description and sent in as a tip to the Met by a retired Birkenhead police inspector, George West.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006

This "Birkenhead MJK" matches Jack Wilson's mother.

George West also mentions the woman living with her mother in Birkenhead. This also turned out to match Jack Wilson's mother.

His grandmother is in Birkenhead with his aunt in 1881.

* Civil parish: Tranmere
County/Island: Cheshire
Street Address: 101 Peel St
Registration district: Birkenhead

Household Members: Name Age

John Dixon 65
Ann Dixon 68
Ellen Dixon 14
Ann A. Dixon 29
George Dixon 1
Mary Kelly 60

Elenahoyos66
01-16-2014, 02:22 PM
So, wait, I'm confused - - are we making the assumption that this man is related to the Mary Jane Kelly?

Or are we just trying to figure out why this man has changed his name on occasion, and that to the curious, it is a puzzling action?

GUT
01-16-2014, 02:24 PM
G'Day Elena

Some speculate [think] he was related to Mary Jame Kelly, the victim of Jacky.

Paddy
01-16-2014, 04:10 PM
Having found Robert and Mary Wilsons marriage cert that states Marys dad was John Kelly a Joiner.
They are probably these I think in Liverpool 1881. You may already have them?.....

RG11/3594 page 47

Robert Wilson b 1854 Head Liverpool Baker
Mary b 1855 wife ..
Robert b 1874 son ..
Christina b 1871 daughter
John Kelly b1824 Visitor Ireland Joiner..

Pat.........................

Paddy
01-16-2014, 04:21 PM
It actually says Christina is 10, so this could have meant to be 10 months old ?

MayBea
01-16-2014, 04:44 PM
Yes, Paddy. She would have been 10 months old.

That's why I think she might be George West's Birkenhead Mary Kelly. He doesn't mention if the child is male or female, perhaps because the child was too young for him to tell the gender.

Paddy
01-16-2014, 06:00 PM
Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please?
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. I will give her a ring tomorrow and ask if she knew of this family.
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Pat................................

Paddy
01-16-2014, 07:13 PM
I think this is the Wilsons, do you have this?

St Anthonys Catholic Church Liverpool
No 3921 Wilson
(born) Anno 1887 1 Mensis Septembris
(Baptized) Anno 1887 10 mensis Decembris Baptizatus est
Guliumus Joannes Wilson
Filius Roberti et Mariae (olim) Kelly
a me Alfredo Walmsley MC
Matrina Fuit Brigitta Leahy

Pat................................

Paddy
01-16-2014, 07:28 PM
Rosa Wilson

Born 9 Jun 1878 Baptised 16 Jan 1879 at St Joseph's
Parents Roberti Wilson Marae Joannae Wilson (olim) Kelly
Matrina Fuit Eliza Adamson

Pat...............

MayBea
01-17-2014, 10:12 AM
Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please? ...
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?
Here are the links to the discussion of West's letter to the London police, however the images are no longer accessible. Perhaps someone from jtrforums can be allowed to post the image or the text here on Casebook.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17026

Mary Wilson would have died sometime between October 1887 when she registered her child and August 1890 when Christina was placed in the orphanage.

Since her death record hasn't been found, she could have survived and possibly remarried, but no one, as far as I know, has found her in 1891.

MayBea
01-17-2014, 10:22 AM
No 3921 Wilson
(born) Anno 1887 1 Mensis Septembris
(Baptized) Anno 1887 10 mensis Decembris Baptizatus est
Guliumus Joannes Wilson
Thanks for finding his baptism.

Does the fact Robert and Mary are listed as parents mean that the parents were present for the baptism? If it does, that means Mary was still in Liverpool two months or three months after with her husband.

Just to correct what I said previously, Robert died in January of 1890 so it was two and a half years after the birth in 1887.

Rosa Wilson died in the last quarter of 1877.

Deaths Dec 1877 (FreeBMD)

WILSON Rosabelle 0 Preston 8e 379

Debra A
01-17-2014, 10:50 AM
Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please?
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. I will give her a ring tomorrow and ask if she knew of this family.
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Pat................................

Hi Pat,
Here are the images of the letter from George West that were posted by me on JTRforums and the subject of Mark/Sanfran/MayBea's posts.
As was noted on the forums-the newspaper article that West refers to was a very inaccurate article that claimed MJK lived with her mother and child in Miller's Court. We all know this was not true but it is the basis for which George West based his identification of MJK with the Liverpool/Birkenhead beggar with the same name:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/birk1.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/birk1.jpg

Paddy
01-17-2014, 03:06 PM
Hi,
Maybea
This cant be Rosas death as she was born in Jone 1878 and baptised in 1879? Also I found the 1877 preston death and it stated she was also born in Preston.
I will have a search in the burials for her and Robert tonight.

I rang my friend and asked about her Wilson family from Everton. Her grandfather was a Robert Wilson but she knew nothing of him as his children were put in homes when young. I got quite excited but the dates dont fit for the baker. she was born late 1930s. I'll check them out though as they could be related.
Thanks for the copy of letter Debs, I will have a search for those names and places too.

Pat............................

Paddy
01-17-2014, 05:10 PM
I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland

Pat

Paddy
01-17-2014, 05:30 PM
Hi Again

It appears mum called then Jane Kelly was a prisoner in Chester Jail and Mary ann was a servant (now said to be born Birkenhead) to an Attorney at Law Robert Anderson and his wife Mary Ann In Grange Lane Birkenhead.
Robert was born USA british subject and his wife Trinidad.

Thats a shame isn't it?

Pat..................................

Paddy
01-17-2014, 05:45 PM
1891 census Birkenhead,

John Ryan born abt 1861 London, Surrey, England Visitor Retired Soldier Birkenhead, Cheshire

Visiting James Gleeson Gateman at Docks... RG12/2886 page 20

Pat

Paddy
01-17-2014, 06:09 PM
Sorry meant to answer your question...

Yes I do think they were both present at the catholic christening.
I saw some where only one was present.

I found Roberts burial from the workhouse.
I looked for Marys death but could only find one from Olive Mount which I think was to do with the poor law or Mental health....in 1920

Pat.................

Debra A
01-18-2014, 01:56 AM
I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland

Pat

Excellent work, Pat.

MayBea
01-18-2014, 10:17 AM
I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland


But where is the child?

Why would someone, already a prostitute, be begging on the street? George West didn't mention her being a prostitute.

I also think George West specifically underlined "girl of that name" because her name was definitely Mary Jane Kelly.

Jack Wilson's mother is still a better fit all around. There obviously aren't that many if Mary A Kelly is the next best.

MayBea
01-18-2014, 11:44 AM
...Yes I do think they were both present at the catholic christening.
I saw some where only one was present....
This quote below explain the standard Catholic procedure related to the paternal information. Although this answer I found is for modern baptisms, I don't see why it wouldn't have applied in the 19th Century.

It definitely indicates father doesn't have to be present except on the birth certificate. Same should apply to the mother.

Does the father of my baby need to be on the certificate if he is not part of her life?
The Baptism Certificate need[s] to reflect the same information that the Birth Certificate does. If the father is listed on the Birth Certificate, he must be listed on the Baptism Certificate.
http://www.saintfrancescabrini.org/images/Frequently_asked_Questions_about_the_Sacrament_of_ Baptism.pdf

I couldn't find anything answering the question of parental presence for England baptism from the 19th Century. It doesn't seem to be a question anyone every asked before.

Every baptismal record has parents listed, when known. I doubt every parent listed was present at their respective child's baptism. So I don't know why you think Robert and Mary necessarily were there.

MayBea
01-18-2014, 11:49 AM
Isn't it strange that George West says "her mother was a big stout woman"? He is referring to Birkenhead MJK's mother, isn't he?

Or is he saying the child's mother was big? And that the child was therefore a female?

Paddy
01-18-2014, 12:58 PM
Hi
Thanks for that link on Catholic christenings.
I am not sure, all I can say is that of the loads of Catholic records I saw, some had both parents named, some had just one parent and some had two parents of different surnames.
I just took it to be what I saw, was how it was.

I have just read the letter again, yes it does say that she had a child, you are correct. It also says she had a mother. If she was in prison the child would be in care or with family.

Robert and Mary Janes daughter Rosa was named thus on catholic record, so in life I think she could have been plain Rose.....

Pat..............................

MayBea
01-18-2014, 01:44 PM
Sorry, you're right. I was looking under Rosa. Here is Rose Wilson's death record:

Deaths Mar 1879 (FreeBMD)

Wilson Rose 0 W. Derby 8b 310

Was her death the beginning of the downfall of the family?

Paddy
01-19-2014, 08:19 PM
Hi again,
I found a marriage at Everton St Saviours Liverpool of an Elizabeth Kelly to Thomas Farrell. Both Full Age dated March 3rd 1874.
Her father is John Kelly a Joiner just like Mary Janes father
I would imagine this Elizabeth and Mary Jane are sisters?

Pat.....................................

MayBea
01-20-2014, 09:32 AM
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. ...
I found one Isaac Wilson in the 1881 Census. His father is James Wilson, plasterer. I'm wondering if this might be Robert Wilson's twin brother.

1881 Cenus

James Wilson 26
Margaret Wilson 20
Margaret Wilson 2
Isaac Wilson 7

1861 census

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alban
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

James Wilson 40
Rose Wilson 41
Thomas Wilson 17
Jane Wilson 14
Robert Wilson 9
James Wilson 9

Paddy
01-20-2014, 09:46 AM
Hi Maybea

I checked it out and found her father Frederick Lewis birth to a John and Mary. I found her father Frederick Lewis Wilson in the Ragged school (as she had also told me), so I think my friend may have got it wrong about his fathers name. There was an Eli Wilson in the family too....I cant find any immediate connection....

Found a death of a child Mary jane Kelly daughter of Mary Ann Kelly, She was charged with neglect with a partner called Cunningham. Will find record later as it would discount Mary Anne (Birkenhead) being anything to do with Dorset Street Mary....

Pat.......................

MayBea
01-20-2014, 01:00 PM
It would be great if they were related to Robert Wilson. Then it would just be a matter of doing a relational DNA test to see if Jack Wilson's descendants are their cousin.

That would prove Robert Wilson was indeed his father and he had no connection to Whitechapel.

I already found some Wilson relatives on Ancestry but they declined.

Paddy
01-20-2014, 03:06 PM
Am checking it out.

So Far.....
My friends father Frederick was son of a John Wilson a carter, born 1894 Everton (not the James and mary I thought) cant find his wife as yet.
John had a brother called Eli born 1870s.
Eli was with his grandfather Eli (b1841 cheshire) in 1881 census Everton

Am just checking out other siblings. be back..

Pat

MayBea
01-20-2014, 03:40 PM
Hi again,
I found a marriage at Everton St Saviours Liverpool of an Elizabeth Kelly to Thomas Farrell....I would imagine this Elizabeth and Mary Jane are sisters?

This Mary Jane had one sister according to the records--Ann A Kelly/Dixon/Dagnall. Ann moved to Birkenhead, and their mother Mary was with her there in 1881 when she was a widow with a one year old son. That's the reason I believe Mary Jane may also have been in Birkenhead around the same time with her own newborn.

Paddy
01-20-2014, 03:46 PM
Too many Elis confused !!!!

John b 1866 (my friends grandfather) is the son of the Eli born c1834 Sutton Cheshire a carter and his wife Mary H ?
Some of Eli and Marys children were born in Birkenhead (up to about 1870 then Everton) Eli, Alice, Mary, Matilda, Esther, John and William (so far)

Do you know Roberts parents names ?

Pat.......................

Paddy
01-20-2014, 04:44 PM
I am almost sure that that Elizabeth is Mary Janes sister as they both have their father John Kelly being a joiner. Also witness at Elizabeths wedding is Annie Kelly.

In 1881 census Living with Thomas Farrell b 1853 Ireland and wife Elizabeth at 19 Kepler street, Everton is Ann Kelly, Joiners widow, born 1813 Lancs

Have a look at RG11/3664 pages 2 and 3

Pat........

Paddy
01-20-2014, 05:28 PM
Sent you a private message......

Pat.....................

MayBea
01-21-2014, 08:05 AM
Do you know Roberts parents names ?

They would be James and Rose Wilson.

Here they are in 1861 in St. Alban, Lancashire:

James Wilson 40
Rose Wilson 41
Thomas Wilson 17
Jane Wilson 14
Robert Wilson 9
James Wilson 9

MayBea
01-21-2014, 11:02 AM
I am almost sure that that Elizabeth is Mary Janes sister...In 1881 census Living with Thomas Farrell b 1853 Ireland and wife Elizabeth at 19 Kepler street, Everton is Ann Kelly, Joiners widow, born 1813 Lancs

Have a look at RG11/3664 pages 2 and 3...

I had a look but it doesn't fit. Mary Jane's mother is Mary Kelly ne. Dulihead/Dowlan/Dolehaunt. In 1881, she is not a widow and is in Birkenhead with Ann, while John Kelly, joiner, is with Mary Jane in Liverpool as you found in post #29.

MayBea
01-21-2014, 11:09 AM
...John b 1866 (my friends grandfather) is the son of the Eli born c1834 Sutton Cheshire a carter and his wife Mary H ?...
James and Rose Wilson would have arrived in Liverpool around 1850. So they are probably not related to the Wilsons in Cheshire.

Sons Robert and James are listed as 9 in the 1861 Census and their other children ages 17 and 14 were born in Ireland. So I'm guessing they were potato famine refugees.

MayBea
01-21-2014, 05:08 PM
Here they are in 1861 in St. Alban, Lancashire:

James Wilson 40
Rose Wilson 41
Thomas Wilson 17
Jane Wilson 14
Robert Wilson 9
James Wilson 9
This family was found by Debra Arif, despite there being a transcription error in Robert's age.

Livia Trivia found they had another daughter born around 1841. Her name is Mary Ann.

MayBea
01-22-2014, 10:18 AM
Livia Trivia found they had another daughter born around 1841. Her name is Mary Ann. BOLD MINE
It's strange but I found a Family Tree of a descendant of Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup and, where Rose Wilson should be, it lists Mary Ann's mother as "Mary Jane Kelly".

It looks like Robert Wilson could have married a cousin. I can't find the baptisms of the twins, Robert and James, to verify the mother's name.

The Tree can be found by logging into your Ancestry account and looking at the Darlington Family Tree of JanetD23.

Paddy
01-22-2014, 10:41 AM
I think this is probably them will look to see if I can find more

Pat...................

Births Jun 1852
Wilson James Liverpool 8b 9
Wilson Robert Liverpool 8b 9

MayBea
01-23-2014, 12:52 PM
It's strange but I found a Family Tree of a descendant of Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup and, where Rose Wilson should be, it lists Mary Ann's mother as "Mary Jane Kelly".
Two other trees for the same family leave the mother's name empty as Unknown.

It seems that James Wilson's wife, Rose, in the 51 and 61 Censuses, is not his first wife, and not the mother of the older children.

Son, Robert, could then have married a blood, Kelly cousin of his older siblings but not his.

GUT
01-23-2014, 01:50 PM
Be very careful with other peoples trees on web sites, I've seen some, relating to my own family, that are pure flights of fantasy. I would very much take one reference to Mary Jane Kelly as mother of Mary Anne with a grain of salt, unless it's supported by documentation.

Paddy
01-23-2014, 02:35 PM
Maybea,
If you have Rose and James Wilson in 1851 and 1861, Rose must be Roberts mother as he and his twin were born in 1852. I looked in both Catholic and ordinary baptisms and christening but found nothing.
I agree with GUT I expect they meant it was Roberts wife not his mother, thats how I would take it.
I have checked newspapers and criminal records from 1879 and cant find any related to a Mary Jane Kelly. When her mum was in Birkenhead in 1881 with Annie and her dad with Robert and Mary in 1881, were they living apart? Or just visiting?
Anyway still looking....

Pat........................

MayBea
01-24-2014, 12:39 PM
When her mum was in Birkenhead in 1881 with Annie and her dad with Robert and Mary in 1881, were they living apart? Or just visiting?
The census records the father and the mother as visitors in the respective households.

The cost of the ferry ride across the Mersey may have been prohibitive, therefore requiring a lengthier stay. Ann was also a recent widow and a new mother and working as a milk dealer.

1881 Census

John Dixon 65
Ann Dixon 68
Ellen Dixon 14
Ann A. Dixon 29
George Dixon 1
Mary Kelly 60 visitor

Debra A
01-24-2014, 03:25 PM
There is this MJK in the criminal records that might be worth further research to see if she corresponds to George West's MJK

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/mjk.jpg

MayBea
01-24-2014, 03:45 PM
This is the best piece of evidence:

The marriage certificate proving that Jack's uncle Henry's niece was living on Thrawl St. in 1887.

Debra A
01-25-2014, 01:13 AM
Has anyone researched who the woman named Mary Jane Dixon who signed as a witness on one of the family wedding certificates (Was it Christina's? I can't remember offhand).

Mayerling
01-25-2014, 01:39 AM
Thank you, Bridewell and GUT.


Might I mention that Jack Wilson was very talented musically. Family claims he could play every instrument by the age of ten, a claim similarly made of Sir Arthur Sullivan.

The talent and the name change to Arthur Sullivan is what led to earlier suggestions that the father was Sir Arthur Sullivan, famous patron of prostitutes.

I have to enquire - where did you get the information that the composer Sir Arthur Sullivan was a "famous patron of prostitutes". It's not impossible that he or Gilbert used them, but Sullivan was known for his long and faithful relationship with Mrs. Ronald, the wife of a banker. In the film "Topsy Turvey" they even discussed how Mrs. Ronald had to get an abortion as a result of their daliance.

Jeff

Mayerling
01-25-2014, 01:42 AM
1891 census Birkenhead,

John Ryan born abt 1861 London, Surrey, England Visitor Retired Soldier Birkenhead, Cheshire

Visiting James Gleeson Gateman at Docks... RG12/2886 page 20

Pat

If there is a connection between the Wilsons, Ryan, and this James Gleeson Gateman, and the fact that Liverpool plays a part in this overall story, the matter may become more interesting than you might think.

In 1849 there was a mass murder in Liverpool of a boarding house keeper and her children by one John Gleeson Wilson, who apparently did it to rob the family (he was boarding with them). Wilson may have been insane, but he was tried, found guilty, and executed.

Jeff

MayBea
01-25-2014, 10:52 AM
If there is a connection between the Wilsons, Ryan, and this James Gleeson Gateman, and the fact that Liverpool plays a part in this overall story, the matter may become more interesting than you might think.
Jack Wilson married into a family of Ryans and Batemans living in London. That was in 1919.

MayBea
01-25-2014, 11:01 AM
I have to enquire - where did you get the information that the composer Sir Arthur Sullivan was a "famous patron of prostitutes"...In the film "Topsy Turvey" they even discussed how Mrs. Ronald had to get an abortion...
As I remember, Mayerling, there was a scene in Topsy Turvey of Sullivan in a French brothel. That would have happened in 1884, the same year Mary Kelly allegedly went to France. A connection was made there.

The Audience Guide for the Skylight Theatre on Broadway describes him thusly:

He smoked, drank, gambled and was
somewhat notorious for his voracious
appetites, including encounters with
prostitutes and indulging in fine food and
wine.

http://www.skylightmusictheatre.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PINAFORE-aud-guide-5.pdf

MayBea
01-25-2014, 12:11 PM
There is this MJK in the criminal records that might be worth further research to see if she corresponds to George West's MJK.
Hi Debra,

This is the article, you will agree, from which George West took his information about Mary Kelly. In it, her child is described as a son of 8.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18036

If West is describing a child matching the one in the Standard, then the child was born around 1880. West retired to another place in 1882 so the child he knew of, or saw, would be under two years old so it could well have been a girl. Again, we have a possible match.

Debra A
01-26-2014, 03:03 AM
Hi Debra,

This is the article, you will agree, from which George West took his information about Mary Kelly. In it, her child is described as a son of 8.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18036

If West is describing a child matching the one in the Standard, then the child was born around 1880. West retired to another place in 1882 so the child he knew of, or saw, would be under two years old so it could well have been a girl. Again, we have a possible match.

Hi MB
That would mean that The Standard's initial account of the murder of MJK was spot on in it's detail? Which it isn't according to witnesses, Barnett especially. Doesn't George West associate Miller's Court MJK with the Birkenhead MJK because of the specific claims made in the Standard at the break of the story: that Miller's Court MJK lived with her child and her mother?

GUT
01-26-2014, 03:12 AM
G'Day MayBea

Any chance of posting more of that article, in particular the last couple of words caught my attention, about in another room. Does that part relate to MJK or is he moving on to another family/person.

GUT
01-26-2014, 03:18 AM
Sorry MayBea

I assume its from the link to JTRforums but it won't let me see it!! Do I need to join to view things?

Stephen Thomas
01-26-2014, 04:56 AM
I assume its from the link to JTRforums but it won't let me see it!! Do I need to join to view things?

Who wouldn't want to join JTRforums?

GUT
01-26-2014, 05:05 AM
G'Day Stephen

But how? I can't find a register link anywhere.

Debra A
01-26-2014, 06:18 AM
The Standard Saturday, November 10, 1888
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/standad1.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/standard2.jpg

Mayerling
01-26-2014, 10:40 AM
As I remember, Mayerling, there was a scene in Topsy Turvey of Sullivan in a French brothel. That would have happened in 1884, the same year Mary Kelly allegedly went to France. A connection was made there.

The Audience Guide for the Skylight Theatre on Broadway describes him thusly:

He smoked, drank, gambled and was
somewhat notorious for his voracious
appetites, including encounters with
prostitutes and indulging in fine food and
wine.

http://www.skylightmusictheatre.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/PINAFORE-aud-guide-5.pdf

Thanks MaeBea for the site - rather interesting one about G & S, or whom I am a fan.

Mayerling
01-26-2014, 10:44 AM
Jack Wilson married into a family of Ryans and Batemans living in London. That was in 1919.

Could the man who was visited in 1891 been named John Gleeson Bateman instead of Gateman? If so, could he have a connection with Gleeson Wilson?

Jeff

MayBea
01-26-2014, 11:03 AM
Thanks MaeBea for the site - rather interesting one about G & S, or whom I am a fan.
You're welcome, Mayerling. I'll admit that my description of S as a "famous patron of prostitutes" might be an over-exaggeration. I must defer on that.

MayBea
01-26-2014, 11:16 AM
Hi MB
That would mean that The Standard's initial account of the murder of MJK was spot on in it's detail? Which it isn't according to witnesses, Barnett especially. Doesn't George West associate Miller's Court MJK with the Birkenhead MJK because of the specific claims made in the Standard at the break of the story: that Miller's Court MJK lived with her child and her mother?
The account of Whitechapel Mary doesn't have to be accurate for West's description of the Mary in Birkenhead to be accurate. It's a fair guess West's description of her is accurate and it does match Jack Wilson's mother, if she did visit with her sister and mother in Birkenhead which is probable.

Of course, I have to admit I'm trying to link Jack's mother with MJK in London. So there is the problem with the account not seeming to match Jack's mum.

But couldn't Mary Kelly have had a child who didn't live with her regularly, and couldn't the friends, whom she allowed to stay regularly with her and who were likely older, be mistaken as being her mother?

MayBea
01-26-2014, 12:39 PM
Has anyone researched who the woman named Mary Jane Dixon who signed as a witness on one of the family wedding certificates (Was it Christina's? I can't remember offhand).
I did look into Mary Jane Dixon to identify her and see if she had any connection to the Birkenhead Dixons or any other connection to the Kellys and Wilsons of Liverpool besides signing as a witness at Christina's wedding, but I couldn't find any connections with the candidates in the Preston area.

Do you think she might be Christina's mother still alive and remarried as a Dixon? I might have to look at Mary Jane Kelly/Wilson marriages to Dixons between 1887 and 1899.

Paddy
01-26-2014, 06:22 PM
Could Annie Amelia Kellys in-law have taken Jack in and been the maiden aunt.
If you look at RG12/2834 page 26 in the 1891 census in Helsby Cheshire
There is also a William J Dixon living with them. (Ann Amelia Kellys' husband
was a Dixon wasn't he?)

John Dixon 65
Mary A Dixon 68
Mary H Dixon 36
William J Dixon 5

Pat....................

GUT
01-26-2014, 06:41 PM
G'Day Deb

Thanks for posting the full article, I could find it but not in a format I could read.

GUT
01-26-2014, 06:43 PM
The article mentions a "Jack" who was a drover, living in McCarthy's any ideas anyone. It says MJK was his mistress.

Paddy
01-26-2014, 07:30 PM
I traced this (last posted) 1891 family back and in 1871 they had a son George living with them born 1851 in Tranmere Cheshire. I think this is Annies husband so the little boy William J with them in 1891 is probably your Jack. But Mary H Dixon is not your Mary J as she is in previous earlier census with parents.

Anne Amelia Kelly (Mary J's sister) married a George Dixon in Birkenhead.
George died in 1880 Birkenhead (see below from freeBMD)

Marriages Jun 1877
Dixon George Birkenhead 8a 686
KELLY Ann Amelia Birkenhead 8a 686

Deaths Dec 1880
Dixon George 29 Birkenhead 8a 305

Pat.................

Debra A
01-27-2014, 03:09 AM
The article mentions a "Jack" who was a drover, living in McCarthy's any ideas anyone. It says MJK was his mistress.

I guess it is supposed to be Barnett given the mention of Billingsgate?
It's a remarkable article-there are no others like it when it comes to describing MJK and her last hours, although some early articles did contain some similar elements- almost all fiction compared to the later witness statements.

Debra A
01-27-2014, 03:12 AM
Do you think she might be Christina's mother still alive and remarried as a Dixon? I might have to look at Mary Jane Kelly/Wilson marriages to Dixons between 1887 and 1899.

I did wonder if she could be, yes.

Lechmere
01-27-2014, 04:54 AM
Initial accounts of dramatic events are often fanciful, but I do find the Standard report interesting.
It must be borne in mind that it is almost certainly the result of interviews with several different informants, some of whom will have been more reliable than others.

The first part that sets the scene is very accurately.
Then it goes into her domestic arrangements, which stray from the orthodoxy and mentions the son and mother who lived with her.
I wonder whether this was actually the son of this mother – rather than being Kelly’s son. In other words a son of a friend that Kelly sometimes ‘used’ as a begging aid. This happens in London today.
‘Jack’ does sound like Joe Barnett.
The account of Kelly’s last night, drinking in the Britannia and in company with Barnett is not altogether unsupported.
Then we have the account of Kelly being alive and well and drinking again in the morning. It is difficult to know what to make of that.
It is quite believable that prior to the arrival of the police, various locals peered through the window to inside no 13, and that account has the ring of truth to it.
However it is also suggested that some entered the room prior to the arrival of the police
The description of the condition of Kelly’s body is also fairly accurate, but I would suggest this probably came from a policeman or doctor who later entered the room. Unless an over-curious mawkish member of the public did go in before and they left and locked the door behind them before the police arrived.
The report suggest that John McCarthy’s son Jack discovered the body and raised the alarm, rather than Thomas ‘Indian Harry’ Bowyer. Bowyer testified that he went down to Commercial Street Police Station with John McCarthy.
Walter Dew described how those on duty at Commercial Street Police Station were informed of the event:
‘a young fellow, his eyes bulging out of his head, came panting into the police station. The poor fellow was so frightened that for a time he was unable to utter a single intelligible word.’
Is it possible that John McCarthy’s son actually ran on ahead?

Debra A
01-27-2014, 07:53 AM
Is it possible that John McCarthy’s son actually ran on ahead?

It does make me wonder-especially as some accounts describe Bowyer as a young man, too-almost like there was someone younger there but no one quite knew who he was.

Paddy
01-27-2014, 09:23 AM
Hi again. Not sure if you already knew of the William John Dixon that I found with Ann Amelia Kellys in laws in 1901 census? It is definitely them and William John Dixon is "Arthur Sullivan" in my opinion. However it still leaves the problem as to his mothers wherabouts ?

Pat............................................... ..

Paddy
01-27-2014, 10:00 AM
Hi Maybea, No he was a Gateman in the Docks.
The Gateman bit was in the profession box...
Pat....

Debra A
01-27-2014, 10:28 AM
Two days later the Standard was still calling Joseph Barnett 'Jack'
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j24/dja1806/jack.jpg
The Standard , Monday, November 12, 1888

MayBea
01-27-2014, 01:42 PM
...If you look at RG12/2834 page 26 in the 1891 census in Helsby Cheshire
There is also a William J Dixon living with them. (Ann Amelia Kellys' husband
was a Dixon wasn't he?)

John Dixon 65
Mary A Dixon 68
Mary H Dixon 36
William J Dixon 5

1881 Census

Helsby, Cheshire

John Dixon 54 Builder b. Liverpool
Mary A. Dixon 57
Samuel Dixon 27
Mary H. Dixon 26
Sarah H. Dixon 21

I found this John and Mary A. Dixon in 1881 so they can't be John and Ann Dixon, in-laws of Ann Amelia. Although they might be related.

MayBea
01-28-2014, 05:07 PM
He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.
Here he is in 1911. He is actually enlisted under the name John Sullivan, not Wilson. He also claims to be born in Dublin, which is where he was discharged from the Cameron Highlanders around 1906.

1911
John Sullivan

Age in 1911: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Birth Place: Dublin, Ireland
County/Island:Military
Country:England
Military Unit: 58th Battery, R F A
ED, institution, or vessel: India
Piece: 34978

MayBea
01-28-2014, 05:12 PM
1901
William J Wilson

Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Male
Birth Place: N
Civil Parish: Wavertree (Catholic Orphanage)
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

MayBea
01-28-2014, 05:19 PM
1891

William Wilson

Age:3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Walton
Ecclesiastical parish:Walton St Mary
Town:Walton
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England
Registration District:West Derby
Sub-registration District: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel:West Derby Union Workhouse (2)

MayBea
01-29-2014, 03:29 PM
I did wonder if she could be, yes.
Between 1887 and the first quarter of 1889 when "Mary Jane Dixon" witnessed Christina's marriage, there are only two Mary Jane Kelly/Wilson marriages to a Dixon and they are in Yorkshire.

I found only one Mary Kelly/Wilson marriage to a Dixon, and that was a Mary Jane Wilson to a Horace Marshall Dixon in London in 1890.

I'm guessing Mary Jane Dixon is not Christina's mother.

Her brother-in-law, John Dixon, did come from the Preston area but that is quite a bit farther north than St. Helens which is in the Prescot area.

Roy Corduroy
01-29-2014, 10:08 PM
Good evening MayBea,


Jack Wilson's mother registered his (Sept. 1st) birth in Liverpool on the 24th of October, 1887. (She reported his father to be her husband, Robert Wilson, who died of TB less than a year and a half later.) To me, all this does do, definitively, is put his mother in Liverpool on the 24th of October.


15820

And you are suggesting the mother, Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly, then went to London, reverted to her maiden name and was the murder victim on Nov 9, 1888 Mary Jane Kelly.

If I understand you

Roy

MayBea
01-30-2014, 08:03 AM
Good evening MayBea,And you are suggesting the mother, Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly, then went to London, reverted to her maiden name and was the murder victim on Nov 9, 1888 Mary Jane Kelly...
...And in September 1887, she had a son with someone, possibly James Maybrick and went, with child in arms, back to Liverpool and registered his birth 12 days after the legal limit of 42 days, reporting the father to be her husband, and left the child there, and returned to London. You understand me correctly, Roy.

Her husband, Robert Wilson, died in January of 1890, less than two and a half (not one and a half as I'm quoted above) years after the birth and about three years after the conception. Since he died of TB, a disease that can cause suffers to linger before death, I think he could have been in the workhouse infirmary for years before he died.

Paddy
01-30-2014, 11:58 AM
Hi Mybea,

I was looking at Christina Wilsons entry in the childrens home in 1891 census. She is listed as a pauper and I believe you were given details that her next of kin was Mary Kelly her grandmother. Maybe they just named the family member who placed Christina in the home as next of kin? One would assume that her mother must have been dead? Did you notice on the previous page there was and Ann Wilson born 1883 also in Everton, as was stated in Christinas entry? Have you ever traced the homes' records?

Re your Jack: A person I knew of many years ago was presumed killed in action in the Great War. However I dont know if he done a runner or what but he wasnt dead, he died in 50/60s. Maybe your Jack went AWOL. Or he could have been already maried? Sometimes the most obvious answer is correct?

It is interesting that a women once known as Mary Jane Kelly seems to have disappeared between 1886 and 1890. She doesn't appear to have died in Liverpool, as you stated.

I looked for John Wilson of the Warwickshire regiment but couldnt find any, have you seen these papers?
Sorry for all the questions but Jacks war records could help if I can find his attestation papers....or pension papers

Pat...................................

MayBea
01-30-2014, 12:43 PM
Have you ever traced the homes' records?

Re your Jack: A person I knew of many years ago was presumed killed in action in the Great War. However I dont know if he done a runner or what but he wasnt dead, he died in 50/60s. Maybe your Jack went AWOL...I looked for John Wilson of the Warwickshire regiment but couldnt find any, have you seen these papers?
Sorry for all the questions but Jacks war records could help if I can find his attestation papers....or pension papers
I've seen all of his enlistment/pension records from the Cameron Highlanders and the RHA/RFA, available at Findmypast. And there were the records of his WW1 medals for service with the RWR.

This site has the pictures of the actual medals:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/qo/ozmcfall/medals.html

It was his brother Robert who was incorrectly presumed dead in WW1.

MayBea
01-30-2014, 01:00 PM
...He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911Census.

If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return...
:oops: He was actually John Sullivan when he served in India with the RHA/RFA so the adoption of the name Sullivan was at his enlistment in the Artillery regiment.

A name change when re-enlisting is common. But why did he deny being John Wilson to an officer of the Cameron Highlanders after his retirement?

The encounter happened during the time he was living in London. I'm thinking it had something to do with his real identity in connection to London.

Roy Corduroy
01-30-2014, 02:37 PM
15823

Robsart Street - Christina's birth 1880, Penrhyn Street - the 1881 Household census, Buckingham Street - William's birth 1887, St Anthony's- William baptised

The Wilson family 1881 census (click) (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQD4-ZXQ) with Christina's age probably a mistake, should be 0.

So essentially, MayBea you propose Mary Jane Wilson (maiden name Kelly) lived a double life.

Roy

MayBea
01-31-2014, 02:51 PM
So essentially, MayBea you propose Mary Jane Wilson (maiden name Kelly) lived a double life.
Not exactly, Roy. I propose she left Liverpool sometime between 1881 and 1884 and she only returned in 1887 when she had a newborn child.

Her sister in Birkenhead was probably sick since she died in the first quarter of 1888 so her old neighbourhood makes sense. (Her mother gives Great Homer street as her address when giving Christina up for adoption, so she's still in that neighbourhood in 1890. Great Homer is in the centre of the map.)

What do you think Mary Jane Kelly would do with a baby? Why not take it back to Wales or Liverpool to her family and make his birth legitimate?

MayBea
01-31-2014, 03:00 PM
Robsart Street - Christina's birth 1880, Penrhyn Street - the 1881 Household census, Buckingham Street - William's birth 1887, St Anthony's- William baptised
Thanks for the map, Roy.

It also shows Bostock street where they were living in 1861.

In 1871, she was living with her parents on Victoria Street. This has been incorrectly identified as the Victoria Street downtown, near the Postehouse. It is actually a street that no longer exists in the same poor neighbourhood she always lived in.

Debra A
02-01-2014, 02:10 AM
What do you think Mary Jane Kelly would do with a baby? Why not take it back to Wales or Liverpool to her family and make his birth legitimate?

Hi MB
The child's birth would have been legitimate anyway because Mary Jane Wilson was a married woman and could therefore automatically place her husband's name as the father of her baby, whether he was or not or even knew anything about the birth and wherever she registered the child (which legally should have been London if he was born there). The father does not have to be present to be named on a birth certificate if the couple are legally married.

MayBea
02-01-2014, 09:35 AM
...Mary Jane Wilson was a married woman and could therefore automatically place her husband's name as the father of her baby, whether he was or not or even knew anything about the birth and wherever she registered the child (which legally should have been London if he was born there)...
You are correct, Debra. But wasn't Mary Kelly hiding her identity in London? Wouldn't she be giving herself away if she registered the birth of her child and gave her real maiden name?

Either way, I think you agree she'd have to leave Whitechapel and register the birth in location away from there, and then find someone to take the baby. So why not back in Liverpool? The Salvation Army could have helped in that regard.

A return visit to Liverpool could also be explained as a last visit with her sister in neighbouring Birkenhead before she died early in 1888.

MayBea
02-01-2014, 02:19 PM
I also don't think Mary Jane Wilson would have just added her husband's name without insuring that he hadn't died in the infirmary in Liverpool more than nine months previously.

There are several reasonable scenarios, all of which I believe could be intended partly to hide the pregnancy and birth from her present boyfriend. She had to either abandon it or give it up for adoption or give it to friends or family, the farther away the better.

Roy Corduroy
02-01-2014, 06:19 PM
So to summarize, all Liverpool -

Robert Wilson born 1854 and Mary Jane Kelly born 1855 marry in 1872 and he is a baker by trade. They have children - Robert in 1874, Rosa born 1878 who dies 1880, Christina in 1880 and William in 1887.

Robert Wilson the father dies of TB in the workhouse in 1890 and William is an orphan at the workhouse in 1891 and Christina an orphan at the cottages in nearby Wavetree that year.

And the mother, Mary Jane Wilson (maiden name Kelly) can't be located in any further census, birth, death or marriage returns after 1887 when she is thirty two years old.

The added scenario suggests that after the birth of Christina, sometime in the early to mid 1880's Mary Jane Wilson left her husband, son and daughter, went to London and lived the life of Mary Jane Kelly we hear of from Elizabeth Phoenix and what Joe Barnett said. Then, in 1887, she gets pregnant, and goes back to Liverpool to have baby William there and baptize him. She then returns again to London alone resuming her life as Mary Jane Kelly. Until she is murdered in November of 1888.

My initial impression is she is not the murder victim and didn't do all that going back and forth. The people who knew the murder victim Mary Jane Kelly don't seem to describe her as a 33 year old woman who had been married for awhile and given birth to several children already. That's just my opinion, don't let it dissuade you from your interest, please.

Roy

GUT
02-01-2014, 06:34 PM
G'Day Roy

My initial impression is she is not the murder victim and didn't do all that going back and forth. The people who knew the murder victim Mary Jane Kelly don't seem to describe her as a 33 year old woman who had been married for awhile and given birth to several children already. That's just my opinion, don't let it dissuade you from your interest, please.

Couldn't agree more.

MayBea
02-02-2014, 11:39 AM
The added scenario suggests that after the birth of Christina, sometime in the early to mid 1880's Mary Jane Wilson left her husband, son and daughter, went to London and lived the life of Mary Jane Kelly ... Then, in 1887, she gets pregnant, and goes back to Liverpool to have baby William there and baptize him. She then returns again to London alone resuming her life as Mary Jane Kelly. Until she is murdered in November of 1888.
Almost right, Roy. She may have gone to London with Christina. Her son, Robert, was already 11 or 12. He could have been on his own already, or sick in the infirmary. Christina could have been left with anyone.

Mary Wilson would have only taken one trip to Liverpool in October to register the baby. The name on the baptism doesn't positively represent her presence in December. Names must only match the birth certificate. I don't think one day trip is out of the question for her to be Mary Kelly.

The godmother has been identified as a 58 year old woman who died about a year later. She couldn't find someone younger?

Thanks for your input, Roy and Gut. But I'm already past the Mary Kelly question. The family ties to the West End and the East End and the missing death record is a match to the real Mary Kelly because all we know for certain is where and when she died and that she only has the two known death records.

My interest is the father.

MayBea
02-02-2014, 08:58 PM
For comparison purposes, here is a picture of his brother, Robert Bruce, from his merchant marine ID, next to James.

Where is the similarity if Jack's resemblance is coincidental?

Roy Corduroy
02-02-2014, 09:41 PM
Thanks for your input, Roy and Gut.

You're welcome

But I'm already past the Mary Kelly question

Then you've left me in the dust. I've just now figured out how Margaret Rawlinson is connected. She who married at age 20 on Thrawl Street, London in 1887. Her mother Angelina Rawlinson nee Gould was the sister of Emiline Kelly nee Gould whose husband, Henry was the brother of Mary Jane Wilson nee Kelly. If that's true I get a gold star.

My interest is the father

I don't now if they resemble, those two. Robert looks like he could play for Everton FC when he got off ship.

But I do find this all very interesting. If you have more detailed information about the Kelly family, her parents and siblings, I would enjoy seeing that presented in a straightforward manner, please. Like ... you've said they lived on Bostock in 61, (who) or a 'godmother' ? There's a lot I still don't know.

Roy

Roy Corduroy
02-03-2014, 09:01 AM
My bad I didn't say that very well, Maybea. My question is - did I get the part right about Margaret Rawlinson? Because I am building my own model at home to follow along. Using the disparate internet sources. As best I know no one has yet issued a pamphlet with all the data in one place.

A thorough, systematic history and a list with known addresses of all her relatives would be helpful. Her immediate family, parents and siblings, in-laws, and in fact anyone else such as friends, neighbors, etc.

Then we can conduct an experiment. Go back in time to November 1888 and go down the list and ask ourselves one by one why none of these people came forward to identify her. For instance, Margaret Rawlinson. Why didn't she go to the local police station in Whitechapel. Because we see that for the other vicitms, their relatives did do that sad duty of coming forward.

That is a question we must ask. Why, when this murder was front page news all over the British Isles, no one identified the victim as Mary Jane Wilson, nee Kelly, born and raised in Liverpool. And even if no relative did, why did not any policeman or other authority, or in fact anyone at all make the connection at the time.

A comprehensive approach built on a strong research foundation. I hope this suggestion is helpful to you in your efforts.

Roy

MayBea
02-03-2014, 09:27 AM
My bad I didn't say that very well, Maybea. My question is - did I get the part right about Margaret Rawlinson? Because I am building my own model at home to follow along....
Thanks for the clarification, Roy. I thought you were suggesting the connection was convoluted, like mother's sister's friend's hair dresser's second cousin twice removed.

You have it right--brother's wife's sister's daughter, or brother's niece.

It might be good to start a Mary Jane Wilson thread, probably in this section rather than the Mary Jane Kelly one. Anyone willing to start one up?

Can we be sure that no relative of Mary Jane Kelly reported her identity to the police?

I'm attaching Jack Wilson's marriage certificate, using the name Arthur John Sullivan. I'm glad you find it interesting, at least.

Livia
02-04-2014, 03:57 PM
Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/


The site has Booth's poverty map of London 1898-99
and a modern day map (2000) for comparison, also Police
notebooks when Booth did his walkabouts.

Liv

Disco Stu
02-04-2014, 06:40 PM
Having checked the 1881 census referred to earlier (post 29) I double checked the original on ancestry.

The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing. 10 months would usually have been noted as 10mo or 10/12. Her occupation is given as scholar, and while maybe she was a very gifted 10 month old, I'm still not sure she would have been at school. It's possible the census taker got both wrong, but it's a stretch.

This doesn't have to be the correct census entry, and doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families. Might need some better corroboration to tie it all together.

GUT
02-04-2014, 06:44 PM
G'Day Stu

Her occupation is given as scholar, and while maybe she was a very gifted 10 month old, I'm still not sure she would have been at school.


:cheers:

MayBea
02-04-2014, 07:49 PM
...The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.
Hi Stu,

This would actually help my theory since she was allegedly a well-known singer "on the English stage" in Lancashire, presumably as a grown-up.

MayBea
02-04-2014, 08:00 PM
Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/...

Thanks and hi, Livia.

Thanks for this link (I used to volunteer for the Sally Ann) and thanks also for your previous research regarding Robert Wilson's family.

Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

Paddy
02-04-2014, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Disco Stu re 1881 census on post #29 (page 3)
The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.

On the Lancashire marriages and Banns Jan 3rd 1899 Ravenhead to Robert Ironside, it states that Christina is 19 years old (father Robert a Baker)

Also on her baptism at Christ Church Everton it states she was born 9th June 1880, (Robert a Baker and Mary Jane named)

I don't think the 1881 census has been filled out correctly. Confusing !

Pat...........................................

Disco Stu
02-04-2014, 10:47 PM
Hi Stu,

This would actually help my theory since she was allegedly a well-known singer "on the English stage" in Lancashire, presumably as a grown-up.

Well if it helps your theory, great, though I'm not setting out to help or hinder it, just make sure it's as solid as possible. I'm not seeing the connection though? How does a confused census return lead to becoming a well-known singer?

Disco Stu
02-04-2014, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Disco Stu re 1881 census on post #29 (page 3)
The Christina Wilson record has two mistakes, being her age and occupation. Her age is definitely 10 on the original, so there's no mis-transcribing...This ... doesn't destroy anyone's theory if it's not, but it does point to there being two similar families.

On the Lancashire marriages and Banns Jan 3rd 1899 Ravenhead to Robert Ironside, it states that Christina is 19 years old (father Robert a Baker)

Also on her baptism at Christ Church Everton it states she was born 9th June 1880, (Robert a Baker and Mary Jane named)

I don't think the 1881 census has been filled out correctly. Confusing !

Pat...........................................

The only reason to think the census is in any way inaccurate is because it doesn't match the records you're trying to connect it with. It's far more likely it is correct, and that there's another, similar family. John Kelly is listed as a boarder rather than father-in-law, and, while I know that's fairly common with in-laws, it's even more common with boarders. There were other Robert and Mary Wilsons, of comparable age, and with Robert as a baker, living in the same area.

MayBea
02-05-2014, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted By Disco Stu
How does a confused census return lead to becoming a well-known singer?
Christina was said to have been a well-known singer, and the real Mary Jane Kelly reportedly said she had a relative "on the English stage". If Christina was only 8 in 1888, she'd have to be a child star.
G'Day Stu
Quote:
Her occupation is given as scholar, and while maybe she was a very gifted 10 month old, I'm still not sure she would have been at school.

:cheers:

I was told her brother Jack could play every instrument by the time he was 10. Maybe they meant 10 months!

See, I told you Mary Wilson's kids were special!

MayBea
02-05-2014, 06:19 PM
For comparison purposes, ... his brother, Robert Bruce ... next to James.
Where is the similarity if Jack's resemblance [to James] is coincidental?
Below are Jack and James.

GUT
02-05-2014, 06:26 PM
G'Day May Bea

I might be missing the point but many family members look nothing alike and some unrelated people look amazingly similar.

Example I had two work mentors who for a period of time I could not tell apart from 10 metres away.

Conversely my Father Brother and I look nothing alike.

miss marple
02-06-2014, 10:04 AM
According to Joe Barnett who is very precise about his relationship with Mary, they did not live together 'intermittently' but together for 1 year and seven months. He left on Oct 30th 1888 but continued to see her until her murder shortly after. He left her because he had lost his job and could no longer afford to look after her, compounded by the fact she invited a prostitute friend to stay with her,
So we are expected to believe that Mary, who had been living with Joe since about April 87, suddenly buggered off to Liverpool to register a baby's birth.
During that time, Joe must has been asleep or had memory loss as this important fact is not mentioned by him, or her Liverpool connections. She managed to hide this birth from everyone she knew in the East End.
Maybe she was teleported.

There are many deaths of Mary Wilson's. This one is interesting. The registration of death of Mary WILSON Sept 1890 LIVERPOOL age 36
8B 123. This fits in with her age and residence.

Miss Marple

MayBea
02-06-2014, 11:58 AM
There are many deaths of Mary Wilson's. This one is interesting. The registration of death of Mary WILSON Sept 1890 LIVERPOOL age 36
8B 123. This fits in with her age and residence.

Her death record has been examined and her husband's name is Martin, so she has been eliminated as, I believe, have all the possible candidates within a one year +/- age range.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=14196&page=2

MayBea
02-06-2014, 12:05 PM
I might be missing the point but many family members look nothing alike and some unrelated people look amazingly similar...
I'm just going by what I got. Thanks for admitting there's a resemblance. He doesn't resemble his brother either but, of course, I think they're half brothers.

A simple DNA test for familial relationship would settle the issue and Jack's side is prepared to provide. I put that out there for James Maybrick relatives.

Of course, if someone had Joseph Flemming's picture, I'd like to compare that too. But we know Maybrick had at least seven children so he was very productive.

MayBea
02-06-2014, 04:03 PM
According to Joe Barnett who is very precise about his relationship with Mary, they did not live together 'intermittently' but together for 1 year and seven months.
I don't think Joe went into much detail about their so-called life together except to say they went on drunken benders and lived at three or four locations.

The newspapers used the word 'spasmodically' when referring to how they lived together. I'm sure they knew what that word meant.

It seems to me that women are quite able to hide their pregnancy. Some aren't even aware of it themselves. Mary Kelly was also described as stout but she doesn't look like it in the pictures.

The new thread on how Mary conducted her transactions seems to bolster the case regarding Mary and Joe's relationship.

miss marple
02-07-2014, 02:53 AM
Joe went into quite a lot of detail about his relationship with Mary, He never said they' went on drunken benders together'. When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her. They moved three times in 1887 but living together. They settled in Miller's Court at the beginning of 1888. They were evicted from their lodgings in Brushfield st at the end of 1887 for not paying the rent, but drinking with it.
Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated. I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job. We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.
Julia Venturney says Joe was very kind to Mary' spoiling her with gifts of meat' and continued to keep an eye on her after he left.
The relationship became strained after Joe lost his job. He could no longer support her and was doing casual labouring and she wanted to go back on the streets, the rows about that led to Jo leaving on Oct 30th.
Because you have a theory, you have to distort the facts to fit it.
At the bottom line there is nothing in the life of Mary Kelly of Miller's Court that fits in with the life of a Liverpool Mary Wilson,
There is nothing to connect them, no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool. If she lied about her past, there would have been elements of truth, its very hard to totally reinvent yourself but you can built lies on what you know, where you were born, where you were brought up.She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales. I am a londoner and if I wanted to lie about my background, I could not say I came from liverpool as I dont know it.
Of course then they is Mary's pre Joe life, Radcliffe Highway etc.
The invisible child is a problem too.

Miss Marple

GUT
02-07-2014, 03:02 AM
G'Day Miss Marple

I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job.

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.


We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.

But don't you know anybody who has a short relationship [perhaps even a number of them] and then settles down for life? I sure do.

Albert
02-07-2014, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia
Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/...
Thanks and hi, Livia.

Thanks for this link (I used to volunteer for the Sally Ann) and thanks also for your previous research regarding Robert Wilson's family.

Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

Hi Livia and Maybea
In case of any confusion William Booth 1829-1912, Founder of the Salvation Army: Charles Booth 1840-1916, Creator of the Poverty Map.
Cheers
Albert

MayBea
02-07-2014, 09:51 AM
...When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her...Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated...There is ... no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool... She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales.
Joe would have worked 12 to 14 hour days, I'm guessing, then sleeping while Mary might be out working or drinking. When would they even see each other?

How long would it take for a woman to deliver her fourth child?

How hard is it to drop it off at a nearby relative's or friend's house for a while and then go back a month later and take it to Liverpool to her mother?

I believe in Sherlock Holmes' process of elimination. Mary Jane Kelly had to be someone. The object is to eliminate the candidates. Find her alive or find her dead somewhere else! One caveat: Jack's mother has been around for 8 years at least.

Jack's mother lived all her life in a Welsh neighbourhood. Just check out the residents in and around Penrhyn Street in 1881.

I personally believe the Street Missionary, likely a seasoned Salvation Army officer, who testified that she was not Welsh. He said she was Irish which means, to me, her family bypassed Wales and came straight to England.

MayBea
02-07-2014, 12:39 PM
...The invisible child is a problem too. Miss Marple
Mary Kelly definitely is rumoured to have 'had' a child, whether with her husband 'Davies', or someone else. This child is said to be anywhere from 2 years old (Mrs. Felix) to 10.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-4466.html

But there is a difference between having a child and having a child with you. No one is saying Mary Kelly had her own child with her.

Thanks and hi, Livia. Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.
This could explain why Jack was able to visit his Wilson cousins in St. Helens even if Mary Jane Wilson abandoned her husband and had Jack with another man. The Wilsons were Kellys too.

MayBea
02-08-2014, 01:14 PM
G'Day Miss Marple

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.
Thanks for jumping in on this, GUT.

What do you think about the idea that Barnett was always keeping an eye on Mary?

Doesn't the recently popular "transactions" thread you've posted on throw suspicion on Barnett's account of their arrangements?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=287016#post287016

GUT
02-08-2014, 03:08 PM
G'Day May Bea

I'd say that he was clearly fixated on her as opposed to keeping an eye on her. Clearly to my mind he was either not over her or extremely jealous. It is interesting that he says he was still giving her money, but out of work. I wonder where he was getting his money from?

MayBea
02-23-2014, 02:06 PM
Four news reports from the U.S. and Canada said that Mary and her porter "husband", i.e. Barnett, lived together at "spasmodic intervals".

The articles all printed the same report.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_star/881109.html

There must have been some time of separation, don't you think? I still wonder about their arrangements between moves. Did they separate or not?

MayBea
04-25-2014, 10:36 AM
I found out that according to the James Kelly theory, Mary Kelly ran away from Liverpool bearing his child. She allegedly aborted the baby but I thought I'd put up Kelly's Casebook photo next to William Wilson.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=whakTPgHW3IC&pg=PT56&dq=ripper+james+kelly+liverpool+aborted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XphaU-urIojM2QWHjYHAAw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ripper%20james%20kelly%20liverpool%20aborted&f=false

miss marple
04-25-2014, 11:30 AM
I admire Maybea's heroic effects to mold and shape her Liverpudlian Mary into the form of Limerick Mary. She pours forth details of this family's genealogy, ignores any facts that interfer with her thesis, dismisses friends, contemporaries and and any evidence that disagrees with her thesis.

But look carefully, its all smoke and mirrors.

Miss Marple

MayBea
04-26-2014, 08:25 AM
The only smoke here is coming from Mary Kelly's macho-fueled fantasy of fatal coal-mine explosions, iron foundries, second battalions, and testosterone-filled families with seven males!

But, of course, Joe Barnett truthfully and correctly relayed Mary's story of her East End whereabouts and acquaintances...so he must be telling the truth about everything else!

Chris Scott should have written another Apotheosis article--this one about Joe!

MayBea
05-31-2014, 12:31 PM
The connection can now be made between Jack and the Royals pre-1919 (when Jack married the goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon), through the cotton trade and the Rothschilds.

The Earl was the colonial secretary under Benjamin Disreali who had Rothschild connections through MPs Nathan and Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschilds started as cotton goods merchants.

Through the cotton trade and banking, you have the connection to the expatriot Greek cotton merchants and merchant bankers, Agelasto/Ralli families.

Jack's aunt's sister was a servant in the Augustus S. Agelasto household in Liverpool.

Cogidubnus
06-01-2014, 02:11 AM
eh?

Dave

MayBea
06-02-2014, 11:53 AM
I'm sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to be obtuse. I started out trying to make some sort of link between Mary Jane Kelly's possibly bogus claim to have come from Carnarvon, or something that sounds like it, with the Earl.

In the end, any Carnarvon/cotton merchant connection, that provides a family link that goes back to the 1880s, could relate to MJW, Jack Wilson's mother, and a possible track for her to London similar to his.

Jack wound up, in London after the war, marrying into a family with Royal connections. If it was because of already established links, then perhaps his mother also journeyed to London and established herself the same way 35 years earlier.

Hatchett
06-02-2014, 12:03 PM
Hi,

I think Joe got the money from doing casual work, which would have been only a pittance compared to what he had before.

Pehaps he still gave her money, and still called on her because he believed that their break up was only a blip in what he believed was a long term relationship.

In other words it could have been a one sided heart break of a human tragedy that happens every day.

Best wishes.

MayBea
06-12-2014, 07:14 AM
She must have thought she was something special; the question is, why? Was it because of talent or beauty?

What if it came from being connected? There's no reason to believe she didn't have any 'connections'. We know she bragged about a relative on the stage.

It doesn't even have to be family connections. She could have gotten them on her own.

MayBea
12-01-2014, 06:52 PM
As we know the Salvation Army was in the business of rescuing prostitutes and their children, but they were also in the business of "family tracing" since 1885.

http://salvationist.ca/departments/social-services/family-tracing/

So it actually does make sense for Mary to take a child back home to Liverpool or anywhere else. She could have taken advantage of this offer and returned with her child to her family and place of birth.

And then she could have gone back by herself to Whitechapel and Barnett, whether or not he was the wiser.