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  • Question about Tumblety's origins

    Hi folks,
    Anyone out there have a clue where Tumblety clan might have lived in Ireland before getting that Famine ship to the USA.
    OR would anyone have any leads I could follow up to get a location.
    Records of imigrants arriving in New York were not kept in the 1840s - in fact, they didn't start keeping such records until the 1890s.
    I'm writing a story on the famine ship journey on the Ashburton (which the Tumblety clan travelled on) but it would be great to go even further back to his life in Ireland (but where) before emigration.
    He did say once that he was born "near Dublin" but that's not much help. As he was a compulsive liar, it might also be wrong.
    Anyone?
    I've already tried the obvious places, Irish archives, newspapers, birth/marriage records etc.
    THANKS
    Last edited by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy; 03-28-2013, 07:14 PM. Reason: to add a word
    Best,

    Siobhán
    Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Originally posted by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy View Post
    Hi folks,
    Anyone out there have a clue where Tumblety clan might have lived in Ireland before getting that Famine ship to the USA.
    OR would anyone have any leads I could follow up to get a location.
    Records of imigrants arriving in New York were not kept in the 1840s - in fact, they didn't start keeping such records until the 1890s.
    I'm writing a story on the famine ship journey on the Ashburton (which the Tumblety clan travelled on) but it would be great to go even further back to his life in Ireland (but where) before emigration.
    He did say once that he was born "near Dublin" but that's not much help. As he was a compulsive liar, it might also be wrong.
    Anyone?
    I've already tried the obvious places, Irish archives, newspapers, birth/marriage records etc.
    THANKS
    Hi Siobhan,

    According to Bill Amos, the 1844 Rochester, NY, directory had Francis' eldest brother, Lawrence, in it with his last name as 'Tumeulty', just like the inscription on the family memorial at the Holy Sepulchre cemetary. Other spellings were used throughout the decades, but....

    I visited the family plot and the memorial is made of granite, a rock type not from Rochester. It's grain size matches that of the granite material in California, especially Yosemite. The prevailing thought is that when Francis died in 1903, this memorial was put up, but they incorrectly spelled the last name. I just don't see the surviving family members spending this much, especially when they were not buried in this plot.

    What if, when mom died in 1873 or one of Francis' siblings (such as in 1898), Francis himself bought the plot and granite memorial (he was the wealthy one)? If so, Francis would have known full well what his historical family spelling was, so 'Tumuelty' just might have been how they spelled their name in Ireland.

    Have you researched Tumuelty?

    Sincerely,

    Mike
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Just to be clear (after my typos); 'Tumuelty' and not 'Tumeulty'

      Sincerely,

      Mike
      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Tumuelty

        I've just had a quick look on Ancestry. Can't find any Tumuelty's but there are a number of Tumalty's (no Francis) born in Meath and Cavan in the mid 19th century. Stewart Evans will know, if anyone does.
        I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi All,

          Rochester Directory 1874—

          Click image for larger version

Name:	LAWRENCE TUMBLETY NURSE ROCHESTER DIRECTORY 1874.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	42.1 KB
ID:	664857

          Rochester Directory 1879—

          Click image for larger version

Name:	LAWRENCE TUMUELTY ROCHESTER DIRECTORY 1879.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	16.5 KB
ID:	664858

          Regards,

          Simon
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi All,

            More confusion.

            Rochester Directory 1871—

            Click image for larger version

Name:	ROCHESTER DIRECTORY 1871.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	60.7 KB
ID:	664859

            Rochester Street Map [date uncertain], Mary Tumuelty's name changes to Tumblety—

            Click image for larger version

Name:	MAGNOLIA AND PLYMOUTH.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	55.2 KB
ID:	664860

            Regards,

            Simon
            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi all,


              Per Bill Amos:

              For the times there is good documentation on Margaret. She, Francis, his sister Ann and a James (not the father) arrived at the Port of New York on June 21, 1847 on the Ashburton from Great Britain. With the help of the Federal Census and Rochester city directories a decent profile emerges of her decliniing years. She was apparently dependant on her eldest son Lawrence and in her last 5 years her eldest daughter Alice Tumblety Fitzsimons.



              Here is a profile of Margaret from the time she arrived in the United States until she died. Spelling and names are as they appearded in the documents.


              1788 Born in Ireland



              1847 21 Jun Margt Tumbleton Arrival Date: Estimated Birth Year: abt 1795 Age: 52 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Liverpool, England Ship Name: Ashburton Search Ship Database: Search the Ashburton in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database Port of Arrival: New York, New York Line: 12 Microfilm Serial: M237 Microfilm Roll: M237_67 List Number: 411

              1850 census Margaret Tumathy Age: 62 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Female Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Household Members: Name Age Ann Tumathy 22 Francis Tumathy 19 Lawrence Tumathy 29 Margaret Tumathy 62


              1851 Rochester City Directory (RCD) Tumilty, Margaret Mrs. Widow b. S. Sophia, n. Flint


              1859 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret h. Plymouth Av.


              !860 census Margarett Tumbite Age: 71; estimated birth year: abt 1789; birth place Ireland; home in 1860 Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York; gender female; Houshold Members: Lawrence Tumbite 40; Margarett Tumbite 71; Robert W. Wilkens 50; William Hayden 37; Mary Hayden 37; Bridget Hayden 17;


              1861 (RCD) Tumblety,Margaret Mrs, h. Plymouth Av.


              1864 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth


              1866 (RCD) Tumelty, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth ave. cor. German
              1867 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow James h. Plymouth



              1868 (RCD) Tumbelty, Margaret wid James h.Plymouth ave.cor Magnolia
              1869 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret Widow of James house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia


              1870 census Margaret Funiblety Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788 Age in 1870: 82 Birthplace: Ireland Home in 1870: Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Race: White Gender: Female Post Office: Rochester Household Members: Name Age Margaret Funiblety 82 Alice Fitzsimmons 61 Mary Fitzsimmons 30



              !870 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia


              1671 (RCD) Tumuelty, Margaret widow house Plymouth


              1872 (RCD) Tumblety, Margaret widow boards Plymouth avenue corner Magnolia

              1873 27 May Died; buried Holy Sepulcher Cemetary, Rochester, New York.

              Margaret lived to be a ripe old age for the times. She bore 11 or 12 children (more on that later) and made the transition from Ireland to Rochester, New York. She was a very hearty woman.


              Lawrence Tumblety was the eldest brother of Francis. He never married, lived in the same Rochester neighborhood from 1844 to 1898 and was a gardener all of his life. His mother and two youngest siblings lived with him, in the late 1840’s, and early 1850’s . He was the first recorded Tumblety in the country. Also it appears that he changed his name from Tumblety to Tumuelty in 1875. That is the name on the family memorial in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Rochester. It is also the name in the 1844 city directory.
              Francis and Lawrence appeared to have been direct opposites. Francis was a flamboyant world traveler who made his money by any means he saw fit. Lawrence was a stay at home kind of guy as previously noted who toiled in other people’s gardens
              .However, they did have one thing in common. Lawrence was a confirmed bachelor and Francis might as well have been one also.

              Lawrence was found regularly in the Rochester City Directories.. I could not find him in the 1870 or 1880 census using every search trick I knew.. Here is a profile of him. Please note; If a source is not identified. It is from the Rochester City Directories.




              1820 born in Ireland

              1844 Rochester City Directory (RCD) Lawrence TUMUELTY b.(board) cor S.Sophia and Clarissa

              1848/49 Rochester City Directory: Lawrence TUMIALTY, gardener last h. S.Sophia

              1850 Census Name: Lawrence Tumathy Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Male Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York
              Household Members: Ann Tumathy age 22; Francis Tumathy age 19; Lawrence Tumathy age 29; Margaret Tumathy age 62.

              1851/52 Rochster City Directory: Lawrence TUMILTY, gardener, h. S.Sophia near Flint

              1859
              Tumblety, Lawrence
              Speculator
              h. Plymouth Av.


              1860 Federal Census Name: Lawrence Trnblte Age in 1860: 40 Birth Year: abt 1820 Birthplace: Ireland Home in 1860: Rochester Ward 8, Monroe, New York Gender: Male Post Office: Gates Value of real estate: Household Members: Lawrence Trnblte age 40; Margarett Trnblte age 71: Robert W Wilkins age 50; William Hayden 37; Mary Hayden age 37; Bridget Hayden age 17.

              1861
              Tumblety, Lawrence
              Gardener
              h. Plymouth Av.

              1864
              Tumblety, La wrence
              Gardener
              h. Plymouth ave. cor. German

              1866
              Tumelty, Lawrence
              gardner
              h Plymouth ave, cor. German

              1867
              Tumbelty. Lawrence
              Gardener
              h.Plymouth ave.cor German

              1871
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Gardener
              house 248 Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia

              1872
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              house Plymouth avenue

              1873
              Tumblety, Lawrence
              house Plymouth avenue n. Magnolia

              1874
              Tumblety, Kawrence
              nurse
              h. 250 Plymouth av. N Magnolia

              1875
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              nurse
              h.250 Plymouth avenue
              1876
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              nurse
              h. 250 Plymouth av.

              1877
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Nurseryman
              house 250 Plymouth avenue

              1878
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Nurseryman
              house 250 Plymouth avenue

              1879
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Nurseryman
              house 250 Plymouth avenue

              1880
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Nurseryman
              house 254

              1881
              Tumeulty, Lawrence
              Nurseryman
              House 254

              1889
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              h. 528 Plymouth avenue

              1890
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              Gardener
              h. 528 Plymouth avenue

              1891
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              h. 528 Plymouth avenue

              1892
              Tumuelty. Lawrence
              gardener
              house 528 Plymouth avenues

              1893
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              house 528 Plymouth av.

              1894
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              house 528 Plymouth av.

              1895
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              hosue 528 Plymouth av.

              1896
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              house 528 Plymouth av.

              1897
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              gardener
              house 528 Plymouth av.

              1898
              Tumuelty, Lawrence
              died


              1898 The inscription on the family memorial in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery states:
              Lawrence TUMUELTY, 14 February 1898, 79 yrs

              Patrick Tumblety was Francis’ other brother. While I am not sure when he entered this country, he was possibly the Jas. age 26 who entered with this mother in 1847. His son is James Patrick and his grandson is Patrick James and his father is James. So there is a possibility that he was James Patrick or Patrick James and to avoid confusion he was called Patrick. He married a woman named Mary they had only one son James P. who was born in 1851. Patrick died at a young age on Sep 20,1859 when he was hit by a falling chimney. Patrick had worked at the gas works as a fireman and a laborer.
              Mary did not die until 1877. It appears that Mary and her son James moved in with Margaret and Lawrence on Plymouth ave. about 1861. His son James Patrick Tumblety (changes his name to Tumilty in 1875) appeared to be fairly prominent in Rochester. We never get a clear look at what he did for a living through the city directories but in the census he was a capitalist in 1900 and “own insurance” in 1910. Additionally, he was an assembly man in Rochester. He was married to Mary J. from England and they had 7 children. He died in 1911.
              Patrick is found in the city directories and the 1850 census. His wife is found in the city directories until she died in 1877
              1850 census Name: Pat Timothy Age: 27 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823 Birth Place: Ireland Gender: Male Home in 1850(City,County,State): Rochester Ward 5, Monroe, New York Household Members:
              Name
              Age
              Mary Timothy
              27
              Pat Timothy
              27

              1849
              Tummialty, Patric
              Fireman, Gas Works
              b. Rapids
              1851
              Tumialty, Patrick
              Fireman, Gas Works
              h. 6 Andrews
              1853
              Tumilty, Patrick
              Gas works, Mumford
              h. Orange
              1855
              Tumelty, Patrick
              Gas works,
              h. Orange
              1857
              Tumilty, Patrick
              Laborer Gas Works
              h. Orange
              1859
              Tumblety, Patrick
              Laborer, Gas Works
              h. Sophia
              1861
              Tumblety, Mary Mrs.
              h. Plymouth Av.
              1863
              Tumblety, Mary
              widow Patrick
              h. Plymouth Av. Cor. Gorman
              1864
              Tumblety. Mary
              widow Patrick
              h. Plymouth ave. cor. German
              1866
              Tumelty, Mary
              wid. Patrick
              h. Plymouth ave cor German
              1867
              Tumblelty. Mary
              widow Patrick
              h. Plymouth ave cor German
              1868
              Tumbelty, Mary
              wid. Patrick
              h. Plymouth
              1869
              Tumblety, Mary
              Widow of Patrick
              house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
              1870
              Tumblety, Mary
              Widow
              house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
              1871
              Tumblety, James P.
              laborer, boards
              Magnolia near Plymouth Avenue
              Tumuelty, Mary
              widow
              house Plymouth avenue cor. Magnolia
              1872
              Tumblety, James P.
              laborer
              boards Magnolianear Plymouth avenue
              Tumblety, Mary
              widow
              house Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
              1873
              Tumblety, James P.
              laborer
              boards Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
              Tumblety, Mary P.
              widow
              house Magnolia
              1874
              Tumblety, JamesW.
              actor
              boards Magnolia near Plymouth avenue
              Tumblety. Mary P.
              widow
              house Magnolia
              1876
              Tumilty, James
              b. Plymouth av c. Magnolia
              Tumilty, Mary
              widow
              house Plymouth av. Corner Magnolia
              1877
              Tumilty, James W.
              bds. Plymouth avenue c. Magnolia
              Tumilty, Mary
              widow
              house Plymouth av.
              1878
              Tumilty, James W.
              boards Plymouth avenue corner Magnolia
              Tumilty,Mary
              deceased May 12, 1877
              The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
              http://www.michaelLhawley.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi all,
                Just wanted to say a massive THANK YOU to everyone so far who has replied to my query about Tumblety's origins in Ireland.
                Have not yet had a chance to go through everything here but will follow the leads to some progress on this topic (I hope).
                Will keep you posted.
                More leads/ ideas/ info if you have any! Thanks again.
                Best,

                Siobhán
                Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tumblety

                  Hello all,

                  Purely speculative, but as I am interested in surnames and their meanings and have been trying to find the possible origins of Tumblety or Twumblety without success (haven't gone very deeply into this, I must admit). I wonder whether the name could have come from the gaelic tuama, a grave or burial mound, and thus the name could mean "the people who live near the burial mound".

                  Best wishes,
                  C4

                  The surname Tuama does seem to exist, perhaps from the 1960s, when it became fashionable among young irish people to take the gaelic form of their names.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's another possibility. I do have Francis' mother's maiden name. Maybe the father, James, married her in the same area in Ireland.

                    Monroe County records (City of Rochester is in) Index to Newspapers published, which has,

                    James Tumelty
                    Married Margaret Conxelly
                    RDA, D 2, 1844, 2-6




                    Also, Joe Chetcuti created a Tumblety timeline on JTRForums:
                    Joe Chetcuti05-08-2007, 09:26 PM
                    January - May 1830

                    Tumblety was born in Ireland, possibly in either Roscommon or Westmeath County. There were three times when his family provided the doctor's age, and all three times his birthdate would have appeared somewhere in the January - May 1830 time frame. The doctor constantly fluctuated his age, such as on the passenger list documents of his transatlantic voyages. But this deception was not practiced by his family who was consistent about giving the doctor's age when required.

                    1844

                    Tumblety's older brother Lawrence had established himself in Rochester, New York by this year.

                    1847

                    During Christmas time 2005, Alan Sharp and I did some Ireland research together. Alan discovered that a Francis Tumblety was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records as having rented a house and office in the Towns Park of Swords County, Ireland. This listing appeared in 1847 & 1848. Alan believes the name Francis Tumblety was uncommon, so we may have gotten lucky here in finding our young man.

                    It should be mentioned though that Tim Riordan has proof that Tumblety (along with his mother, sister, and cousin) traveled on the Ashburton from Great Britain to New York. They arrived on June 21, 1847 and we feel this was Francis Tumblety's initial arrival in America.

                    Alan says the name Tumblety is a derivation of Tumulty, a name which uniquely hails from the counties of Roscommon and Westmeath, Ireland. But just in case Tumblety was born in Swords County, I checked into the Baptismal Records of the old St. Colmcilles Church in Swords. It turned out that the Baptismal Records for Swords have not survived for the years prior to 1835.

                    I'd like to thank both Alan and Tim for allowing me to share this.

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Joe Chetcuti05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
                    I just heard from Alan and he clarified that Swords is a town in County Dublin. (Swords is not a county itself.) It's located in the northern part of County Dublin near the airport.

                    In June, I'll post Part Two of the Timeline (1848-1854) but these were the mysterious years. I doubt if I'll be adding anything new to what is already known. Anybody can feel free to jump in and submit tidbits to the Timeline whenever you like.




                    Sincerely,

                    Mike
                    Last edited by mklhawley; 03-30-2013, 01:28 PM.
                    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oops! I left out a critical piece with Francis' mother's maiden name. The 'x' in 'Conxelly' as a slash through it, so it's most likely 'Conelly'.

                      James Tumelty
                      Married Margaret Conxelly(Conelly)
                      RDA, D 2, 1844, 2-6
                      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Siobhan,

                        Joe just informed me that his post on Jtrforus was six years ago, and since then they have confirmed that the "Francis Tumblety" who was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records, and who had rented a house & office in the Town Park of Swords, was NOT the man who would later become the Ripper Suspect. It was a different man with the same name.

                        Sincerely,

                        Mike
                        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                          Hi Siobhan,

                          Joe just informed me that his post on Jtrforus was six years ago, and since then they have confirmed that the "Francis Tumblety" who was listed in the Griffiths Valuation Records, and who had rented a house & office in the Town Park of Swords, was NOT the man who would later become the Ripper Suspect. It was a different man with the same name.

                          Sincerely,

                          Mike
                          Hi Mike,
                          I came across that record just after I joined Casebook and got very excited. Posted info on here and got knocked back...
                          But thanks anyway...
                          Best,

                          Siobhán
                          Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Link here to request by me for info about Tumblety's possible origins in Cavan, Ireland.
                            It started out as a simple letter to readers of the Anglo-Celt but one staff journalist decided to morph it into a feature story (with inaccuracies). In fairness to the local journo, he figured out where "Inniskillen Falls" is in Ireland. Tumblety mentioned it in one of his autobiographies.
                            Yes, indeed, "Inniskillen Falls" are in Cavan and not Co. Fermanagh...
                            In the 18-19th centuries they claimed to do cures for all sorts of ailments (a bit like Lourdes) - anything to get the American tourists to come to Ireland!
                            Will let you know if anything credible comes back from Anglo-Celt readers. Cavan genealogy have come up with nothing as already got on to them. I did get a few lengthy emails already - from people on Casebook who prefer other suspects to Tumblety....Typical that! didn't realise the Anglo-Celt newspaper was so widely read.
                            It’s the greatest whodunit in history. Who was behind the brutal murders of 11 women in the East End of London, stretching from April 3, 1888 to February 13, 1891. Who was Jack the Ripper?
                            Best,

                            Siobhán
                            Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy View Post
                              Hi Mike,
                              I came across that record just after I joined Casebook and got very excited. Posted info on here and got knocked back...
                              But thanks anyway...
                              Hi Siobhan,

                              Good to see that it hasn't put you off
                              I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                              Comment

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