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  • A Case of Misattribution?

    A few days ago I submitted a post that elicited a number of interesting yet off-topic responses. Below is a rehash of the said post which, as the more discerning members will be aware, echoes an argument I advanced in my book many moons ago with reference to Anderson and the Seaside Home identification. So here goes.

    According to Anderson the Seaside Home witness was ‘the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer’, a man who ‘unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him’. In reflecting on this assertion Swanson declared that the identification would ‘convict the suspect, and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged …’ (My emphasis.)

    In Swanson’s opinion, therefore, the identification in itself would have been sufficient to have secured a conviction. Since Lawende’s vague and unremarkable sighting could never have effected such an outcome, the witness could have been no-one other than Schwartz. Thus the assault perpetrated by Broad Shoulders must have been considered the initial stage of the attack that left Stride lying dead just a few feet away. If Dr Blackwell’s estimated time of death may be taken as reliable, moreover, the murder may have occurred within a minute of Schwartz departing the scene.

    So Schwartz was Anderson’s mystery witness, and Kosminski was the man identified as Liz Stride’s attacker and thus Jack the Ripper.

    All well and good. But there is a problem. Beyond more than a century of assumption and supposition there is not a shred of evidence to substantiate the contention that Stride fell victim to the Whitechapel Murderer. In point of fact everything about the Berner Street crime suggests that it was unrelated to the Ripper series. If this was indeed the case, the solution to the Seaside Home identification has been staring us in the face all along: Kosminski was implicated in the Ripper murders by way of a crime that was entirely unconnected to Jack the Ripper.


    Whereas this scenario explains why Swanson believed the eyewitness evidence alone was sufficient to have secured a conviction, and why Anderson believed that the Whitechapel Murderer had been positively identified, Anderson clearly overstated the case when insisting that the identification had been established as a ‘definitely ascertained fact’. This was less of a lie than a straightforward case of wishful thinking fuelled by a non sequitur. The real flaw in Anderson’s conclusions relates to the Stride murder and its automatic inclusion in the Ripper series. Had this crime been evaluated strictly on the evidence it would have been treated as incidental, and Kosminski could not have been linked to Jack the Ripper, even in the event that he did kill Stride – a proposition which to my mind is extremely doubtful.

    And that’s it. Cause and effect as explained by the evidence.

    Over to you.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Garry Wroe View Post
    ... there is not a shred of evidence to substantiate the contention that Stride fell victim to the Whitechapel Murderer. ..
    ... Had this crime been evaluated strictly on the evidence it would have been treated as incidental, and Kosminski could not have been linked to Jack the Ripper, even in the event that he did kill Stride – a proposition which to my mind is extremely doubtful....
    You've suggested two (2) things, Garry. That Elizabeth Stride was not a Ripper victim, and that Aaron Kosminski did not kill her anyway.

    I was following you until your last sentence. If you don't think Kosminski killed Stride, why do a hypothetical with Schwartz/Koz/Anderson/Swanson then. Because if you find it doubtful Kosminski killed Stride, yet hypothetically it was Schwartz who ID'ed Kosminski as her attacker, then he simply identified the wrong man.

    Is that what you are saying? Or is there somethng here I'm missing.

    Roy
    Sink the Bismark

    Comment


    • #3
      Very good perspective Garry.

      One sideline issue that has always intrigued me is, that the press were constantly on the alert for people taken in for questioning, or being arrested, in connection with the Whitechapel Murders.

      In this case we have a potential suspect, presumably incarcerated, and a prominent witness, being brought together for an identification, yet, not a whisper was leaked to the press.

      We even have no 'after-the-fact' rumours, even if it happened 3 months ago surely someone in the press is going to jump on this little gem. The question of "who was Jack the Ripper" is timeless, it wouldn't matter if this identification actually occured 6 months ago or five years ago, it would still have been news in the 1890's!
      Yet, there is nothing in the press at all.

      Regards, Jon S.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Jon,

        No press coverage?

        It's possibly because the seaside identification never took place.

        Regards,

        Simon
        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

        Comment


        • #5
          'Caged in an asylum'?

          Simon, I agree.

          In the first version of Anderson's memoirs in 'Blackwoods' he also seems to concur that the [alleged] positive identification, at least, did not take place at a coastal police hospital or anywhere else outside a mental institution. After confirming that a libel action was possible if he named the murderer and the journalist who created the hoax letter, Anderson writes:

          '... I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him, but when he learned that that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.'

          The detail about seemingly already 'caged' was dropped from the book version, but not specifically denied.

          Furthermore, Anderson linked the identification of the Polish Jew to the house to house search, and also added the Poplar case to his footnote with McKenzie -- by implication further projecting back these events, regarding a positive identification, into 1888.

          This is why secondary sources -- initially denied Aaron Kosminski's name before 1987 -- theorised, understandably, that Anderson must have meant Pizer and the collapse of the testimony of the witness Emanuel Violenia.

          Later secondary sources, post-Fido, scratch their heads wondering why Cullen and Rumbelow, in 1965 and 1975 respectively, would have thought Anderson meant Pizer? This is because they have become so sued to Aaron Kosminski as the Polish Jew suspect that they have lost sight of how Anderson (and Swanson in private) give the strong impression that they are writing about 1888, or early 1899 at the latest. That is why Fido did not find 'Kosminski' in the earlier records. Fido has never given up on that time line, rejecting Aaron Kosminski as too late and too harmless to be the real Polish Jew suspect.

          In my opinion, this inevitably self-serving memory malfunction about the timeline makes Anderson (and Swanson) a very unreliable source about the Ripper (and there are other examples of his memory failing him; always to the benefit of his ego and, even to the benefit of the Conservative Party).

          Evans and Rumbelow in 2006 persuasively argue (for me anyhow) that this muddle is inspired by a real event: Joseph Lawende, a Jewish witness, being brought in to 'confront' Tom Sadler -- a seaman suspect -- shortly after Aaron Kosminski was indeed 'caged in an asylum'. And all after what was initially considered to be the latest and 'final' Jack murder: Frances Coles, who in certain flailing primary sources is merged with Kelly -- but not Macnaghten and not Reid.

          In a sense, to quote a previous poster, the failed witness identification has been 'in front of us' all the time.

          Furthermore, Evans and Rumbelow argue that:

          'It is difficult to believe that the attempted identification of a suspect as Jack the ripper could take place ... with no mention ever being made by anyone who was party to that identification (p. 249)... Some who adhere to the theory that the identification took place exactly as Anderson described it say there must have been another witness and that he (probably Schwartz) had been used to identify Kosminski, but was not used again because of his refusal to testify against the Polish Jew. This idea is not tenable. First, as Lawende was used in the attempt to identify Sadler he would naturally, also have been used in any other attempted identification of a Ripper suspect. Secondly a witness cannot simply 'refuse to give evidence' if it is required.' (p. 252)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
            Hi Jon,

            No press coverage?

            It's possibly because the seaside identification never took place.

            Regards,

            Simon
            Yes Simon, but not a popular interpretation.

            Regards, Jon S.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Jon,

              Agreed, but unpopular with whom?

              All Swanson did on Page 138 of TLSOMOL was pencil-in a variation of a footnote which appeared in Anderson's magazine article but was missing from his book.

              On the other hand, the end-paper notation is just so much modern mischief.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Last edited by Simon Wood; 07-04-2012, 03:38 AM. Reason: spolling mistook
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear Simon

                Do you think it is a viable compromise position that it is still Swanson's notation but written at a significant length of time after the first entry.

                At a time when he was, inevitably and understandably, straining to recall bits and pieces and so he has got things muddled up, and exaggerated.

                I think your essential point that the second entry, in content, is seemingly a quantum leap from the first is very astute.

                Yet the writer has 'Kosminski' dead 'soon after' whereas Macnaghten in 'Aberconway' does not, and yet Anderson does -- but only in his son's biog.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Excellent post Gary,

                  Great stuff.....however,

                  The simple fact Stride had her throat cut is evidence that she fell victim to the Whitechapel murderer, which tallys with the other victims. My experience in researching the newspapers about attacks (on all persons, not just women) is that when compared to other MOs, garotting and stabbing are by far the most popular modes, with throat cutting lagging behind. However, I stress, this is purely my experience.

                  Also, maybe to be noted, the murder rate statistics for the years pre and post 1888. The sudden explosion of murders in that area also supports. However, in my opinion, there are far more evidences against which is why I, personally, am reluctant to include Stride.

                  Monty
                  Monty

                  https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                  Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it could be as follows:

                    After the Stride-Murder, the MET Police searched the Area (the first house to house search for the Stride- Killer) and found "Pipeman" first and probably another man (hours) later. I do not think, that the second man was Leon Goldstein. Goldstein was never arrested.

                    The second man could have been "Kosminski".

                    About 30. September, Swanson´s report:

                    "If Schwartz is to believed, and the police report of his statement casts no doubt on it, it follows-if they (Schwartz and Police Constable William Smith) are describing different men that the man Schwartz saw and described is the more probable of the two to be the murderer."

                    1. October 1888, Star:

                    "The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but in held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man´s statement is not wholly accepted."

                    2. October 1888, Star:

                    "In the matter of the Hungarian... the Leman- Street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts."

                    To Israel Schwartz ("The appearance of being in the theatrical line"), the officers changed their minds from "Schwartz is to believed" to "have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

                    "from another source" could mean that someone else saw a "suspect" near the crime scene "unrelated" to the crime. This suspect could be "Kosminski".

                    After the Kelly- Murder, the MET- police got information that this man, called "Kosminski", was caged in an asylum. There was held the first identification and "Kosminski" was identified by an Jewish witness (MET- witness).
                    Before "Kosminski" is released, they take him to the City police. The second identification took place in any "Seaside Home" (probably present were the Jewish witness Lawende and PC Watkins).The PC recognized him. Resembling the person whom he saw. Subsequently the City police watched "Kosminski" by day and night.

                    The murderer killed his victims:

                    About 3:30 AM Nichols

                    About 5:35 AM Chapman
                    (By the way, really, a good time for: "the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer")

                    About 12:50 AM Stride
                    (Witness William Marshall: "He was middle-aged and stout, about 5ft 6in tall, respectably dressed in a small black cut-away coat and dark trousers. He was wearing a small peaked cap, "something like a sailor would wear". He had the appearance of a clerk"... "He admitted that the spot where the couple was standing was badly lit")
                    (Witness Israel Schwartz: "age about 30, 5ft 5in, complexion fair, dark hair, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket, trousers black, cap with a peak, nothing in his hand")

                    About 01:40 AM Eddowes
                    (Witness Lawende: "of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak" and "age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."

                    About 02:00 - 04:00 AM (or later???) Kelly

                    It seems, in both scenes (Berner Street and Mitre Square) there was a man:
                    About 30 years of age
                    Stout, full face, broad shouldered, round neck
                    Small moustache
                    Cap with a peak
                    Appearance of a sailor

                    It seems that it was the same man. But these descriptions were nothing special. But:

                    "from another source"= William Marshall?

                    But it would mean, that Schwartz and "Pipeman" could not identify "Kosminski" (on 1/2 October).
                    It would mean, that Lawende and the PC saw him much later (at the "Seaside Home").
                    It could mean, the MET did not observed "Kosminski".

                    The DoubleEvent was a "good time" to overlook the "Ripper", if he was interrogated and suspected.

                    If Schwartz, "Pipeman" and Lawende had not been the Jewish witnesses, who came to an asylum to "identify" the "suspect"?

                    Joseph Hyam Levy? Harry Harris? Anyone from Berner Street (Club)? Anyone from Buck´s Row, Hanbury Street or Dorset Street? I don´t know, we don´t know...

                    It would be possible:

                    Swanson listed Stride as a Ripper-victim, because "Kosminski" was seen in Christian Street/Boyd Street (by Williams Marshall) at 11:45PM. An hour before Stride was killed.

                    Marshall and Lawende saw a man, who "...had the appearance of a clerk" and the "...appearance of a sailor".

                    Just thoughts...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see two main flaws in this laying out of various sources from 1888.

                      For one thing they are all from 1888, at a time when Aaron Kosminski was unlikely to be known to the police in any significant way, perhaps beyond a name on a list.

                      There are a number of primary sources, not least Anderson's interview in 1892 which makes it seem very unlikely that he was aware of the Polish Jew suspect yet.

                      Secondly, Lawende described a man who does not match so-called Broad-Shoulders Man and does not seem to be Jewish at all, being fair, and is specifically dressed like a sailor unlike anybody at the Stride murder (with the possible exception of 'Knifeman').

                      Hence Lawende being used to 'confront' Sadler, and if the one source is reliable, being used to confront Ripper suspect William Grant in 1895 -- also a seaman.

                      It can be strongly argued from the scanty, incomplete extant record that Anderson's locked-up lunatic does not become established until after the dust settled on Grant -- to whom the eyewitness [allegedly] positively affirmed, yet the case for him as the Ripper went nowhere -- but he was 'safely caged' for a while though.

                      There are thus several elements in 1895 which can be joined together, from disparate bits and pieces, which broadly matches the mishmash which Anderson will deliver to scorn and derision in 1910:

                      - a Ripper suspect is caught, virtually red-handed.
                      - a Jewish witness affirmsto the [Seaman] suspect, yet the case against him as the fiend does not go ahead.
                      - The suspect is thankfully incarcerated.
                      - Grant had been temporarily in an asylum in Surrey in 1891.
                      - Swanson says that the best suspect is a man who is 'now deceased'.
                      - Anderson says that the best suspect is a madman who was locked-up.
                      - Grant's lawyer believed, wrongly, that Grant had died in prison.

                      Fifteen years later the two tales of Grant and 'Kosminski' -- at least as Anderson understood the details about that suspect -- may have merged together.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you don't think Kosminski killed Stride, why do a hypothetical with Schwartz/Koz/Anderson/Swanson then. Because if you find it doubtful Kosminski killed Stride, yet hypothetically it was Schwartz who ID'ed Kosminski as her attacker, then he simply identified the wrong man.
                        For the purpose of the present discussion, Roy, it doesn’t really matter whether Kosminski did or did not kill Stride. Based upon his psychology and the fact that there exists no evidence to suggest he was prone to violent outbursts, I think it unlikely that he did so. The sequence of events in which I’m most interested involves Anderson’s claim that Jack the Ripper was identified coupled with Swanson’s seeming corroboration of such and his naming of the suspect as Kosminski. This begins to make sense only once it is recognized that the man who identified Kosminski must have been Schwartz, meaning that Kosminski was linked to the Stride murder and only the Stride murder.

                        Is that what you are saying? Or is there somethng here I'm missing.
                        No, Roy. You understood my argument perfectly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Very good perspective Garry.
                          Thanks, Jon. Hopefully we’ll find out if it’s evidentially robust.

                          In this case we have a potential suspect, presumably incarcerated, and a prominent witness, being brought together for an identification, yet, not a whisper was leaked to the press.
                          I’m not so sure that Kosminski was incarcerated, Jon, but I do take your point. This is yet another reason why we need to make sense of what happened, and how and why it happened.

                          We even have no 'after-the-fact' rumours, even if it happened 3 months ago surely someone in the press is going to jump on this little gem. The question of "who was Jack the Ripper" is timeless, it wouldn't matter if this identification actually occured 6 months ago or five years ago, it would still have been news in the 1890's!
                          Absolutely. Which goes some way to explaining why so many are sceptical about Anderson’s claimed identification.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's possibly because the seaside identification never took place.
                            Perhaps, Simon. But then we would have to accept that Anderson lied about the identification, aided and abetted by the stoic and seemingly upright Swanson. That just doesn’t ring true to my way of thinking.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The simple fact Stride had her throat cut is evidence that she fell victim to the Whitechapel murderer …
                              That’s my point, though, Monty. It isn’t. And if this is the level of proof we apply in order to distinguish a Ripper victim from a non-Ripper victim, Coles and a number of others ought to be included in the canon.

                              Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly each sustained a cut throat, a wound that penetrated back to the spinal column. Not so in the case of Stride. Each also suffered a severed left carotid artery. Not so in the case of Stride. Whereas both Phillips and Blackwell stated that Stride died ‘relatively slowly’, death was said to have been ‘instantaneous’ for the other victims. We also have an absence of strangulation in the Stride case, as well as the fact that she was discovered whilst lying on her left side. This latter element occurred in none of the other Ripper murders. Victims were strangled and then lain on their backs to facilitate evisceration. Not so in the case of Stride.

                              When I talk about evidence, Monty, I refer in part to the consistent, seemingly ritualized behaviours exhibited by the Ripper at his known crime scenes. Given that none of this was apparent in the case of Stride, I maintain that there is not a shred of evidence to connect the Berner Street murder to Jack the Ripper.

                              Also, maybe to be noted, the murder rate statistics for the years pre and post 1888. The sudden explosion of murders in that area also supports.
                              As a qualified statistician, Monty, I would urge caution when interpreting such trends. There is a strong correlation (r>0.7) between ice cream consumption and drownings, but that’s no guarantee that you’ll plunge to the bottom of your local lido after sampling a Mr Whippy. Correlation is a measure of association, not causality.

                              Just for clarification, I cannot say with absolute certainty that Stride was not a Ripper victim. I can only say that there is a complete absence of evidence to support the commonly held belief that she was. Should anyone provide convincing evidence to the contrary, however, I’d change my stance in a heartbeat.

                              Comment

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