Polly Nichols

[Luke111]

So I just read the inquest testimony of Dr. Rees Ralph Llewellyn, and he said that he :
"noted that there was a wine glass and a half of blood in the gutter at her side but claimed that he had no doubt that she had been killed where she lay."

Further on he says:

No blood was found on the breast, either of the body or the clothes

My question is then, how could she have been killed at the scene, without leving her clothes clean of blood?

[lynn cates]

bleeding her

Hello Luke. We know that Polly was subdued by being strangled. After that, her throat was cut twice. Could that first cut, taking the carotid out of commission, have been used to "bleed" her before mutilating her?

The trick seems to be that her head and neck be kept to one side, away from her other clothing.

Possible?

Cheers.
LC

[Luke111]

Sound very possible yes, but still if you cut that deep at least some blood drops or sprays, would come onto Pollys clothing wouldnt it?

[Steven Russell]

Hello, Luke.
According to the A-Z, Dr LLewellyn noted, "... there was only a wine glass and a half of blood in the gutter beside her, but had no doubt she had been killed on the spot."

The Times does say that no blood was found on the breast but the injuries were to the abdomen. This all makes sense does it not?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Wickerman]

My question is then, how could she have been killed at the scene, without leving her clothes clean of blood?

Luke, a body ceases to bleed to any great extent once the heart stops.
Once the throat is cut blood may stop flowing within minutes, or less. I think blood was only found under her neck.

Spratling said:
"There was blood on the upper part of the dress body, and also on the ulster, but he only saw a little on the under-linen, and that might have happened after the removal of the body from Buck's-row."

We just make allowances for minor errors between officials.

Regards, Jon S.

[Luke111]

I guess it does Its easy to get lost in details, since there are so many...

[Steven Russell]

It sure is. Interesting that the good doctor missed the mutilations on his first examination and used wine glasses as his preferred unit of cubic capacity.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Hunter]

Hi Luke,

Yes, Dr. Llewellyn's statement made to the press did contribute to speculation that Nichols may have been killed somewhere else and removed to that spot. That is understandable this early in the series because sometimes in murders with a 'motive' the perpetrator would try to take the body somewhere else to thwart detection.

However, it became apparent that Mary Ann Nichols died where she was found. Her back was covered with blood where it had collected underneath her and was absorbed by her garments. This was found out when the police removed her body from the scene. P.C. Thain testified that upon picking her up, his hands became covered in blood.

[Lechmere]

The various reports make it clear that there was a considerable quantity of blood in her clothing under the lower part of her body.
The doctor thought her throat was cut first, but I have a suspicion that she was stangled and then the abdomen was attacked hence the larger quantity of blood there and the lack of it from her neck wounds.
I think the neck wounds may have come after.
There indeed was no blood by her breast - in other words blood had not drained down to her breast from the neck wound as it was performed when she was horizontal and the limited amount of blood flowed straight onto the roadway.
I think the reference to a lack of blood on the breast is in connection to her being murdered at the scene and not transported.

[lynn cates]

elsewhere

Hello Luke.

"Sound very possible yes, but still if you cut that deep at least some blood drops or sprays, would come onto Polly's clothing wouldn't it?"

Perhaps, but wouldn't that be true even if she were cut elsewhere?

Cheers.
LC

[Luke111]

Hello Luke.

"Sound very possible yes, but still if you cut that deep at least some blood drops or sprays, would come onto Polly's clothing wouldn't it?"

Perhaps, but wouldn't that be true even if she were cut elsewhere?

Cheers.
LC

Right, didnt think of that

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Luke. To be perfectly fair, there was a story ("Lloyd's" I believe) in which there were drops of blood indicating a zig-zagging of the body across the street.

Story did not last long.

Cheers.
LC

[Steven Russell]

Hello Luke. To be perfectly fair, there was a story ("Lloyd's" I believe) in which there were drops of blood indicating a zig-zagging of the body across the street.

Story did not last long.

Cheers.
LC

That's fascinating, Lynn. One would expect smears to be the result of dragging a body. Drops might suggest the flight of the killer after the event.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[lynn cates]

tales

Hello Steven. Well, the fascination soon ended when the medical people opined otherwise.

Rather like a story I saw in "The Echo" in which MJK and her "little boy" (don't laugh) were on there way to buy milk (Milk? MJK? Gin flavoured, perhaps?) just before her death.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

zig zag

Hello Luke and Steven. Here it is. It is from "Lloyd's Weekly" for September 2, 1888.

Cheers.
LC