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auntyjoan
10-05-2011, 12:33 PM
There is a listing in the Polish records for another son of Abram Joseph and Golda of Klodawa (both already established as Aaron's parents elsewhere on this site). This record comes in the form of a marriage recorded in 1881 between Wolek Lajb Kozminski (b 1860), "son of Abram Josif and Golda of Klodowa" He married Brucha Kozminski (b 1856), daughter of Kasriel Szlama Kozminski and Ryfka.

Nemo
10-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Hi Joan

Is that an interfamily marriage, like cousins or something? (Sorry I'm not much of a genealogist)

Would he be Anglicised to Woolf as his first name

Chris
10-05-2011, 01:03 PM
There is a listing in the Polish records for another son of Abram Joseph and Golda of Klodawa (both already established as Aaron's parents elsewhere on this site). This record comes in the form of a marriage recorded in 1881 between Wolek Lajb Kozminski (b 1860), "son of Abram Josif and Golda of Klodowa" He married Brucha Kozminski (b 1856), daughter of Kasriel Szlama Kozminski and Ryfka.

Thanks for posting this information. This is the marriage of the couple who were later known as Woolf and Betsy Abrahams in England. We believe that they were indeed cousins of some kind (possibly Woolf was a first cousin of Betsy's father).

Quite a lot of information about Aaron Kozminski's family has been posted on this thread:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=29

lynn cates
10-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Hello Joan. Thanks for posting this. I look forward to your further research and postings.

Cheers.
LC

auntyjoan
10-05-2011, 02:29 PM
Chris, Have you ever researched any possible connection between Martin K, Aaron K and the fact that one of the witnesses, Joseph Hyam Levy, was also a referee on Martin's naturalisation papers? This is a question that had bugged me for many years, the link, if any, between Aaron and Martin's families.

It is also interesting to note that one of Lawender's referees was a Joseph Britton and on Daniel Kozminskis naturalisation papers, one of his referees was a Morris Britton. I wonder if these two Brittons were related. Any suggestions Chris?

Errata
10-05-2011, 07:30 PM
Thanks for posting this information. This is the marriage of the couple who were later known as Woolf and Betsy Abrahams in England. We believe that they were indeed cousins of some kind (possibly Woolf was a first cousin of Betsy's father).

Quite a lot of information about Aaron Kozminski's family has been posted on this thread:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=29

I might be dense on this, or may have missed it, But if the Kozminskis adopted Abrahams as their surname upon immigration, why didn't Aaron? Especially as I would bet money that he anglicized Aaron from something like Aron.

Chris
10-05-2011, 08:02 PM
Chris, Have you ever researched any possible connection between Martin K, Aaron K and the fact that one of the witnesses, Joseph Hyam Levy, was also a referee on Martin's naturalisation papers? This is a question that had bugged me for many years, the link, if any, between Aaron and Martin's families.

It is also interesting to note that one of Lawender's referees was a Joseph Britton and on Daniel Kozminskis naturalisation papers, one of his referees was a Morris Britton. I wonder if these two Brittons were related. Any suggestions Chris?

No, I haven't researched a possible connection between Martin Kozminski and Aaron's family, beyond looking at the naturalisation records. I know Scott Nelson has done some research on Martin's family in Polish records. I'm not aware of any connection between the families. We know enough of the genealogy to know that they weren't closely related.

Scott has also done some research on Joseph and Morris Britton, according to which they were cousins, if I understand correctly:
http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-1363.html

Chris
10-05-2011, 08:06 PM
I might be dense on this, or may have missed it, But if the Kozminskis adopted Abrahams as their surname upon immigration, why didn't Aaron? Especially as I would bet money that he anglicized Aaron from something like Aron.

We don't really know why Aaron retained his original surname, but he did sometimes use Abrahams - he said in court, "I goes by the name of Abrahams sometimes, because Kosmunski is hard to spell."

Stephen Thomas
10-05-2011, 09:35 PM
Chris, Have you ever researched any possible connection between Martin K, Aaron K and the fact that one of the witnesses, Joseph Hyam Levy, was also a referee on Martin's naturalisation papers? This is a question that had bugged me for many years, the link, if any, between Aaron and Martin's families.



Hi Joan

Nice to see that you've realised you're among supportive friends here.

Errata
10-05-2011, 10:23 PM
We don't really know why Aaron retained his original surname, but he did sometimes use Abrahams - he said in court, "I goes by the name of Abrahams sometimes, because Kosmunski is hard to spell."

I have doubts. Not fact based truthy kind of doubts, but human behavior cultural kind of doubts.

Scott Nelson
10-06-2011, 12:48 AM
I know Scott Nelson has done some research on Martin's family in Polish records.

Yes, I found Martin and Samuel's Polish birth records (still in undeciphered Polish). Interestingly, there was a middle brother, Jacob. I couldn't find him in any of the London census records, so I'm not sure if he emigrated with the other two. I did find one guy at the right age, a tailor - Jacob Koski, living next door to the butcher, Joseph Hyam Levy, in the 1891 census. This Jacob was only one of about three Koski's in the area at the time.

I'm interested in any possible connections with the furrier, Martin, the hairdresser Daniel and the dyer (tailor) Wolf. All were around the same age, but too old to be the brother of someone around Aaron's age.

auntyjoan
10-06-2011, 12:58 AM
Sorry I didn't mean to run two threads on Aaron but am writing on this one and also on the main Suspect Kosminsky thread. I will stick to that one when posting in future, sorry for any confusion caused. Newbies are such a pain aren't they!

Errata
10-06-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm interested in any possible connections with the furrier, Martin, the hairdresser Daniel and the dyer (tailor) Wolf. All were around the same age, but too old to be the brother of someone around Aaron's age.

Unless they are more than probably 30 years in age apart, they could still be full siblings. Women were married anywhere from 12 or 13 to the early 20s, especially in rural Jewish communities. Assuming menopause or death by 45 or 50 and you have a good 35 years of childbearing potential. And that's assuming they all had the same mother, which they might not have. Probably half of Jewish men in the Pale married more than once, sometimes to new brides younger than their children. We don't distinguish between mother and step mother, certainly not in the instance where the previous wife is deceased. It likely might not occur to a Jewish immigrant to list someone other than his father's wife, since they would not see the value of putting a dead woman's name on an official record. As far as they are concerned, its about contact, not genetics. Your father's wife could find you in a pinch if necessary, where your dead mother is likely not going to be of much help. But the wife of your father is considered your mother. It's a thing that stems from our matrilineal inheritance.

Which isn't to say that happened, but given the death rates in childbirth in the Pale, I would actually be surprised if Aron and his siblings all had the same mother.

lynn cates
10-06-2011, 03:40 AM
Hello Joan. There was also a Jessie Kosminski. Found her in the "Jewish Standard." If I recall properly, she was giving a piano recital.

Cheers.
LC

Robert
10-06-2011, 05:31 PM
I believe Jessie Kosminski was quite a talented singer and was the daughter of Martin. Memory might be playing me false, though.

lynn cates
10-06-2011, 05:35 PM
Hello Robert. Thanks. I had the impression they were related.

Very respectable family--Martin, I think, contributed to various Jewish relief projects.

Cheers.
LC

Robert
10-06-2011, 05:50 PM
Hi Lynn

Yes, respectable but like anyone in trade, Martin had his ups and downs financially. Chris George wrote an article about him in one of the Rips c.2002.

robhouse
10-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Jewish Chronicle, March 16, 1888

"Jewish Working Menís Club - A concert was given on Sunday last, in which the following took part: the Misses Jessie Kosminski, D Solomon, Kate Cohen, A. Cortez, Messrs. Tom Squire, R Ganthony, J.B. Helmsly, S.B. Garcia, M Moscowitz, H.T. Davis, B Cohen and H Wasserzug."

auntyjoan
10-06-2011, 08:08 PM
Hi, I've just posted all of Martin and Samuel's siblings and family details on the main Kosminski thread which you might like to read. Yes, Jessie was one of Martin's children. I didn't know she was an accomplished pianist, thanks for the detail.

Many of this branch were quite well to do. I have a photo of Ada, Martin's married sister, at her home in Norfolk Rd, Dalston/Stoke Newington, with the car and the chauffeur! She was getting on in years by then. Unfortunately I don't know where the photo is, still packed in cases in the garage I suspect. One of Ada's grandson's Jacob/Jack Stevens stage name was Harry Dent. I am reliably informed he was well known in his day - obviously musical talent ran in the family!

Robert
10-06-2011, 08:28 PM
Hi Joan

Yes, there is a Times item in which he is on the same bill as George Formby snr. And here's a link to a Leeds playbill :

http://www.leodis.net/playbills/item.asp?ri=200349_72887820

auntyjoan
10-06-2011, 08:52 PM
Fabulous, thank you for that! Yes, he did double act with his wife Fanny. Somewhere in the files I have a little anecdote about them, I think they used to go round to the house in Norfolk Rd alot, as they all probably did. My elderly neigbhour will be impressed, he loves George Formby!

Robert
10-07-2011, 02:00 AM
Hi Joan

This would be George Formby's dad. I once heard on the radio an early recording by George Formby senior. If I remember right, he came across as a bit lugubrious, and original, for he did something unusual at the time, and that was to talk out the record - he ended by saying something like "Well, I must be off home now, I've got to go and get my dinner...."