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Wolf Vanderlinden
04-25-2008, 05:23 PM
I started the "Anniversary" thread in order to acknowledge the death of Carrie Brown. I don't think it is an appropriate thread to discuss the manner of her death or any possible connection to the Whitechapel murderer and so have started this new thread for that purpose.

Was Carrie Brown a victim of Jack the Ripper?

Wolf.

Observer
04-25-2008, 06:08 PM
Hi Wolf

Regarding Carrie Brown, what was the MO, and were there any signatures? :scratchchin:

Observer

Wolf Vanderlinden
04-30-2008, 06:35 PM
Sorry for the delay in responding.

Carrie Brown was a desperately poor, white, 55 year old alcoholic part-time prostitute. This would fit with the victimology of the Whitechapel murders. She was last seen alive at 11:00 p.m., Thursday, 23 April, when she and her killer went up to room 31 on the top floor of the East River Hotel. Her body was found at around 9:30 a.m. the next morning lying on the bed of her room (although open to question, there is evidence that she was killed between midnight and 2:00 a.m. on the Friday).

The autopsy revealed that Brown had been struck on the side of the head, manually strangled and then had some of her undergarments wrapped around her neck and head (covering her face) so tightly that the Coroner had to cut them off. It seems that strangulation was the probable cause of death and the mutilations to the body followed shortly after (as stated at both the inquest and the trial of Ameer Ben Ali) although there were opinions that she had died from a combination of strangulation and haemorrhage (death certificate).

Her body was mutilated with cuts to the lower abdomen, a deep one on the left side allowing her intestines to protrude, a series of cuts that ran from the lower abdomen back between her legs and ending just above and to the right of the coccyx. The majority of wounds consisted of a series of light scratches and abrasions to her legs and buttocks. On the bed were found two pieces of intestine and the left ovary (it seems unlikely that the ovary was purposefully removed and was probably detached from the body when the deep cut to the left side of the abdomen was made). Her throat was not cut. The weapon used was a dull, broken 4 in. table-knife which was left at the scene.

Many elements of the Ripper’s MO can be seen mirrored in the murder of Carrie Brown however there are several key differences to keep in mind. She was not murdered in the East End of London but on the Lower East Side of New York. She was not murdered during the “Autumn of Terror” but almost 30 months later. The knife used was dissimilar to the one used in London. Her throat was not cut (this fact alone caused the London police to reject her as a possible Ripper victim) . The murderer of Carrie Brown allowed himself to be seen.

There are also elements of the Ripper’s signature evident in the New York murder. There was the same sexual focus to the violence committed against Brown. There seems to be the same blitz method of attack used to quickly subdue and control the victim through blows to the head and strangulation. Evidence of picquerism.

However, there are also dissimilarities as well. “Overkill” is not evident in the Brown murder. Brown’s body was not displayed in the typical fashion of the London victims – lying on their backs, legs splayed, clothing hiked up to expose the genitals. The Brown murder was not an escalation in violence as seen in the Whitechapel murders and, although the murder took place in relative privacy, the majority of the cuts to the body were shallow with some being described as mere scratches. The Brown murder shows signs of disorganization with a valuable clue, the murder weapon, left at the scene.

It is hard to see why the Whitechapel murderer would lay low for almost 30 months after the murder of Mary Kelly then travel to New York in order to kill one woman and then disappear for good.

Wolf.

Jon Guy
04-30-2008, 07:46 PM
Hi Wolf

Thank you for the excellent summary of the crime.

As you highlighted, the murder weapon was left behind, this and the non throat cut makes me believe that we are not dealing with the same man.

However, both New York and London were connecting ports, and I guess that the East End and the East Side were crawling with sailors who would visit both ports.

Tom_Wescott
04-30-2008, 07:52 PM
Hi Wolf! It's good you to see. Your Feigenbaum essay in RN #28 was awesome. Regarding Brown, I agree with you that it seems highly unlikely that she was killed by the Ripper. From what I can tell in the field, those who do put her forth as a Ripper victim seem to be caught up in the romantic notion of the Ripper traveling to America.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

sdreid
04-30-2008, 08:00 PM
I think Brown is a very unlikely Ripper victim but I wouldn't ever say 0% given our current knowledge. It's still an interesting unsolved case no matter what.

Observer
04-30-2008, 08:04 PM
Hi Wolf

Thanks for the info regarding Carrie Brown. I'm assuming that Carrie Brown was observed going up to the room with her killer? If so then I would suggest that had the Ripper been responsible for Carrie Browns death then he would not have made the mistake of parading himself with Brown in front of a witness.

Observer

jdrake
04-30-2008, 10:35 PM
My thoughts are that if Kelly was a Ripper victim, then Brown's body would have been found in more or less the same state because in both murders the killer had ample time and privacy to carry out the extensive mutilations. However, if Kelly's mutilations were more like the rest of the C5 then I might consider Brown a more likely candidate for a Ripper victim.

George Hutchinson
04-30-2008, 11:45 PM
Personally, I place Brown just behind the likelihood of Frances Coles and about level with Emma Smith and The Pinchin Street Torso et al.

In other words, extremely unlikely. 95% so in my opinion.

PHILIP

Wolf Vanderlinden
05-01-2008, 10:06 PM
I see that we all seem to more or less agree on the point.

Jon, thank you. The lack of the throat cut resolutely down to the spine is pretty damning for what would have to be a later (last?) victim of the Whitechapel Murderer. Also, as jdrake has pointed out, there is a big difference between the death of Kelly and Brown even though the circumstances were similar. I get your point about the two port cities and, in fact, this was pointed out at the time of the Brown murder and the NYPD specifically searched ships and arrested sailors.

Tom. Always good to hear from you. Thanks for the compliment on the Feigenbaum article. Feigenbaum obviously has a tenuous connection to the Carrie Brown murder which, as you know, I first explored in The New York Affair Part 3 back in Ripper Notes #19. I have to agree with you about a romantic idea some people have of the Ripper escaping and traveling to America and this theory was rampant in New York during the time of the Whitechapel murders. The first mention of this possibility that I have found so far dates from the 10th of November, 1888, and it carried on into the next century. New Yorkers, or at least men with some connection to New York, such as Ameer Ben Ali, Henry Dowd, Feigenbaum, Frank Castellano, Emil Totterman, not to mention Tumblety or Arbie LaBruckman, were considered, at one time or another, by the New York press to be Jack the Ripper. This all seems to stem from a fear, or uneasiness of immigration (notice all of the men I listed were foreign born). And, as New York was the great gateway to the US, it is logical that New Yorkers would be afraid that the Ripper, should he want to cross the Atlantic, would end up stalking the dark alleys of their city. After all, a lot of ships brought a lot of faceless, nameless people and dumped them in New York.

Stan. You don’t know the half of it. A truly fascinating slice of forgotten American history. Sex, death, corruption, the rail-roading of an innocent man, crusading journalists and ultimate redemption all set in New York, a city of great wealth and great poverty, during the “Gilded Age.”

Observer. Yes, Brown entered the East River Hotel with a man who was seen by the “Assistant Housekeeper,” actually a prostitute named Mary Miniter who worked part time at the hotel, and she was able to furnish a fairly good description of him. It is also interesting to note that a blood stained man who fit the description, right down to the observation that he appeared to be German, entered the Glenmore Hotel, only blocks from the East River Hotel, on the night of the murder and tried to get a room but was turned away because he had no money. Hard to see the Ripper allowing himself to be seen covered in blood by hotel staff.

Wolf.

sdreid
05-02-2008, 12:50 AM
Hi Wolf,

Yes, New Yorkers seemed to be much more interested in murders farther up the social ladder in the 1890s. A fiftyish prostitute couldn't hold a candle to the likes of Carlyle Harris or Roland Molineux. I wonder what they were doing that night.:scratchchin:

Celesta
05-02-2008, 01:02 AM
Hello Wolf,

I did read The American Murders of Jack the Ripper and I was struck by what, at the time, I thought was sloppiness on the part of Carrie Brown's killer. This source indicated that the killer had escaped across the roof and had left a trail of blood droplets, right on down into the street. If this is true, it seems most un-Jack-like. In addition, a bloody man went into a---forgive me memory fails---bar or business not too far from the hotel, then left after a brief conversation with a couple of men there. If this was the same man, who killed Carrie, it also seems very un-Jack-like.

Regards,
Celesta

Wolf Vanderlinden
05-03-2008, 12:19 AM
Hi Stan.

Actually, the murder of Carrie Brown was called at the time “the worst murder in the history of New York,” while the police investigation was called “the greatest manhunt in the history of New York.” This was naturally followed by “the greatest trial in the history of New York.” It was big news in its day and some of the cream of New York society scrambled to get seats at the trial. Even our old friend Richard Mansfield, who was playing ‘Beau Brummell’ at the Garden Theatre at the time, sat in on the Ben Ali trial.

Of course the Harris trial in early 1892 made the Brown murder yesterdays news (if it wasn’t already) while Molineux’s trial didn’t even start till November, 1899. As Both were poisoners, or at least Harris was convicted while Molineux was eventually acquitted, that lets them off I should think. Have you read The Devil’s Gentleman by Herold Schechter’? It’s an excellent look at the Molineux case.

Celesta
The man who accompanied Carrie Brown to the East River Hotel was not seen leaving the building and actually how he left was never explained. The police did find blood on the scuttle, or trap door, that led to the roof of the hotel and it was thought that he had escaped over the roof tops. There was no bloody trail however. I talked about the incident of the bloodstained man who entered the Glenview Hotel in my last post. I agree with you that it seems to be a very un-Jack-like thing to do.

Wolf.

sdreid
05-03-2008, 12:45 AM
Hi Wolf,

Yes, one of my sons gave me The Devil's Gentleman for Christmas.

Interesting that Carrie Brown isn't even in the A-Z by name.

Celesta
05-03-2008, 02:43 AM
Hi Stan.

Actually, the murder of Carrie Brown was called at the time “the worst murder in the history of New York,” while the police investigation was called “the greatest manhunt in the history of New York.” This was naturally followed by “the greatest trial in the history of New York.” It was big news in its day and some of the cream of New York society scrambled to get seats at the trial. Even our old friend Richard Mansfield, who was playing ‘Beau Brummell’ at the Garden Theatre at the time, sat in on the Ben Ali trial.

Of course the Harris trial in early 1892 made the Brown murder yesterdays news (if it wasn’t already) while Molineux’s trial didn’t even start till November, 1899. As Both were poisoners, or at least Harris was convicted while Molineux was eventually acquitted, that lets them off I should think. Have you read The Devil’s Gentleman by Herold Schechter’? It’s an excellent look at the Molineux case.

Celesta
The man who accompanied Carrie Brown to the East River Hotel was not seen leaving the building and actually how he left was never explained. The police did find blood on the scuttle, or trap door, that led to the roof of the hotel and it was thought that he had escaped over the roof tops. There was no bloody trail however. I talked about the incident of the bloodstained man who entered the Glenview Hotel in my last post. I agree with you that it seems to be a very un-Jack-like thing to do.

Wolf.



Ah ha. Thank you, Wolf, I stand corrected. You also corrected another misconception I had, and that was that Carrie's wounds were closer in nature to Mary Kelly's than it was. Thank you. Celesta

Wolf Vanderlinden
05-05-2008, 08:02 PM
Celesta, You are welcome.

Stan, not only is Brown not listed by name but she was not called "Old Shakespeare" but merely "Shakespeare" by her friends and associates. This caused real problems for the NYPD because there were other people on the Lower East Side, men and women, also nicknamed Shakespeare at the time of Brown's murder. The most famous of these was a woman named Annie Campbell who had been an actress, as Brown had been at one time, and the two women's biographies were mixed up by the police. Much of what we think we know about Carrie Brown is therefore a confusion with the life of Campbell.

Wolf.

sdreid
05-05-2008, 08:16 PM
Hi Wolf,

Yes, I'd heard that about the "Old" business. My guess would be that the confusion arose when an individual used the word as a term of derision like someone who didn't like our recent Presidents would call them old Clinton or old Bush. I don't know if that is a common practice in the UK.

nicole
05-10-2008, 06:17 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone have any more information on the Room #31 key and bloodied shirt that was 'alledgedly' found in a New Jersey farm shortly after the murder of Brown?? (I personally don't recall ever reading anything about this 'alledged' incident until quite recently.)

Nicole

sdreid
05-10-2008, 03:43 PM
Hi Nicole,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

nicole
05-10-2008, 08:35 PM
Hi Stan,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole

Howard
01-30-2009, 04:32 AM
When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.We know he had a barber shop in NJ during this time.He fits the description fairly well of the man seen with Brown.

No crime has to be a Zerox of other crimes regarding a sequential killer.I have researched many serial killers and their murders since 1987 and found this to be true.I say Carrie was close enough!!!

Chapman's wife at the time said that at this time period on one occasion George was attempting to pull a 'large knife' from under a pillow and kill her!She later testified about this incident.What saved her it seems was that a customer came into the shop!

sdreid
01-30-2009, 04:47 AM
Welcome Howard,

Chapman isn't at the top of my suspect list but I certainly haven't struck him off.

protohistorian
01-30-2009, 05:29 AM
Hi Stan,



All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole
I think so, she fits into my concetion of Chapman JtR, but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

Supe
01-30-2009, 06:19 AM
Howard,

When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.

In a book review a couple years ago Wolf was quite certain that Chapman had not yet arrived in the USA when Brown was murdered. I hope he notices the thread is again active and clarifies his assertion. He certainly seems to know the Carrie Brown case backwards and forward so I hope he will straighten out the timing.

Don.

Supe
01-30-2009, 06:21 AM
Proto,

but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

So too is Nicole an undergrad--and a particularly bright one.

Don.

Mort Belfry
01-30-2009, 07:41 AM
The real question is, if Carrie Brown was killed in the exact same circumstances but in Whitechapel, who would then consider her a strong case to be a Ripper victim?

Gideon Fell
01-30-2009, 11:16 AM
No she wasn't another Ripper victim.

Wolf Vanderlinden
01-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Don, your wish is my command.

First off, Klosowski/Chapman was hardly “a trained military surgeon.” He was a surgeon’s assistant which meant he was trained in only the most rudimentary surgical skills. Some have stated that he obtained the rank of junior surgeon, he certainly applied to take the exams, but according to his own papers he was still paying hospital fees to the Warsaw Society of Assistant Surgeons some three months after the exams. He wouldn’t be paying these fees if he was indeed a junior surgeon. It’s not even clear whether he entered the army or not.

Second, Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, Klosowski’s sister in law, gave evidence at his trial in 1903. She was asked “Had you seen the accused very often before he went to America?” To which Mrs. Rauch replied: “Yes. I came over here in August, and they went to America about the following Whitsuntide.” As Mrs. Rauch had arrived in London in August of 1890 then “the following Whitsuntide” would have been 17 May, 1891, or almost a month after the Brown murder in New York.

Third, Klosowski looked nothing like the man seen entering the East River Hotel with Carrie Brown on the night of her murder. The murderer of Carrie Brown was younger, taller and had blond hair and a blond mustache. Klosowski had dark brown hair and a black mustache.

Fourth, Klosowski’s supposed attack on his wife with a butcher knife has been blown way out of proportion. She found the knife, asked what it was for, was jokingly told he was going to use it to cut her head off, there was an argument and his wife took the knife away.

Fifth, the wounds to Brown’s body were not consistent with those of the Ripper’s victim’s. She was not murdered by Jack the Ripper.

Wolf.

cknapp
01-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

jmenges
01-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

No.

Tumblety was in all likelihood in Hot Springs, Arkansas on 24 April 1891, since he was robbed there of cash, diamonds and rail road bonds on 17 April 1891.

JM

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 03:17 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding.

Carrie Brown was a desperately poor, white, 55 year old alcoholic part-time prostitute. This would fit with the victimology of the Whitechapel murders. She was last seen alive at 11:00 p.m., Thursday, 23 April, when she and her killer went up to room 31 on the top floor of the East River Hotel. Her body was found at around 9:30 a.m. the next morning lying on the bed of her room (although open to question, there is evidence that she was killed between midnight and 2:00 a.m. on the Friday).

The autopsy revealed that Brown had been struck on the side of the head, manually strangled and then had some of her undergarments wrapped around her neck and head (covering her face) so tightly that the Coroner had to cut them off. It seems that strangulation was the probable cause of death and the mutilations to the body followed shortly after (as stated at both the inquest and the trial of Ameer Ben Ali) although there were opinions that she had died from a combination of strangulation and haemorrhage (death certificate).

Her body was mutilated with cuts to the lower abdomen, a deep one on the left side allowing her intestines to protrude, a series of cuts that ran from the lower abdomen back between her legs and ending just above and to the right of the coccyx. The majority of wounds consisted of a series of light scratches and abrasions to her legs and buttocks. On the bed were found two pieces of intestine and the left ovary (it seems unlikely that the ovary was purposefully removed and was probably detached from the body when the deep cut to the left side of the abdomen was made). Her throat was not cut. The weapon used was a dull, broken 4 in. table-knife which was left at the scene.

Many elements of the Ripper’s MO can be seen mirrored in the murder of Carrie Brown however there are several key differences to keep in mind. She was not murdered in the East End of London but on the Lower East Side of New York. She was not murdered during the “Autumn of Terror” but almost 30 months later. The knife used was dissimilar to the one used in London. Her throat was not cut (this fact alone caused the London police to reject her as a possible Ripper victim) . The murderer of Carrie Brown allowed himself to be seen.

There are also elements of the Ripper’s signature evident in the New York murder. There was the same sexual focus to the violence committed against Brown. There seems to be the same blitz method of attack used to quickly subdue and control the victim through blows to the head and strangulation. Evidence of picquerism.

However, there are also dissimilarities as well. “Overkill” is not evident in the Brown murder. Brown’s body was not displayed in the typical fashion of the London victims – lying on their backs, legs splayed, clothing hiked up to expose the genitals. The Brown murder was not an escalation in violence as seen in the Whitechapel murders and, although the murder took place in relative privacy, the majority of the cuts to the body were shallow with some being described as mere scratches. The Brown murder shows signs of disorganization with a valuable clue, the murder weapon, left at the scene.

It is hard to see why the Whitechapel murderer would lay low for almost 30 months after the murder of Mary Kelly then travel to New York in order to kill one woman and then disappear for good.

Wolf.

This is one of the most perfect descriptions of an diorganized serial expeimenting with different actions within the crime, in a vain attempt to reachieve the thrill of early victim's. If we postulate that The extent of violence in the Kelly crime would be another attempt to achieve this fantasy, and in his mind, is found unsatisfactory and relecting a need for him to keep experimenting. Hence another phase of expiremntation was needed. This in concert with profit motive would also explain later crime scenarios wich we know unfolded wth Chapman. Well, it's an idea anyway. Fire away. Yes I'm saying she could plausibly be a ripper victim under the above descibed scenario anf also fit the current data as I see it. Make it quick you beautiful bastards!! .

Christine
02-02-2009, 04:28 AM
This is one of the most perfect descriptions of an diorganized serial expeimenting with different actions within the crime, in a vain attempt to reachieve the thrill of early victim's. If we postulate that The extent of violence in the Kelly crime would be another attempt to achieve this fantasy, and in his mind, is found unsatisfactory and relecting a need for him to keep experimenting. Hence another phase of expiremntation was needed. This in concert with profit motive would also explain later crime scenarios wich we know unfolded wth Chapman. Well, it's an idea anyway. Fire away. Yes I'm saying she could plausibly be a ripper victim under the above descibed scenario anf also fit the current data as I see it. Make it quick you beautiful bastards!! .

The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 06:40 PM
The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

That is correct. In the terms of an analytical appraoch, their is no reason to suspect she is. In terms of my flimsy attempts to work through Chapman's pathology, she fits and very well could be a Chapman victim. From what we know of his pathology, a case could be made for her inclusion. I accept that this methodolgy will not "prove chapman killed Ms. Brown or indeed the others, it will only lend a plausible scenario through known facts of his life married with the little we now know regarding psycho-pathological progression among disorganized serials.

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 06:59 PM
The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

It is not circular by intent, I am merely asserting that if we say Chapman was undergoing a phase of fantasy instability, the consequential result would be experimentation. We see in the Brown crime a marked departure from previous methodologies ( assuming Chapman to be JtR). This fits with what would be expected, and should not come as a surprise.

ChrisGeorge
02-02-2009, 07:31 PM
Hello Howard and protohistorian

It seems as if you have "bought" the arguments of R. Michael Gordon as to George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) having been Jack the Ripper, and the Thames Torso Killer as well, which is similar to Ms. Cornwell's argument about all the murders that she attributed to painter Walter Sickert.

The plain fact is that, as we have discussed here in the past Mr. Gordon "over-eggs" or "over-lards" his theory, conveniently accepting some facts and ignoring others that don't fit with Chapman having been the killer.

Chapman seems no more than an outsider for having been Jack the Ripper. As with Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, his modus operandi was that he was a poisoner not a knife murderer or mutilator.

Moreover, Jack's public display of his victims, women who were probably unknown to him before the night of their murder, screams that he wanted people to know about his crimes which is opposite to the way Chapman operated in dispatching his common-law wives. Chapman was a stealthy silent killer, using a secretive method rather than the public method of murder that Jack used.

Chris

Wolf Vanderlinden
02-02-2009, 07:41 PM
In terms of my flimsy attempts to work through Chapman's pathology, she fits and very well could be a Chapman victim.

...except that Chapman was still in London on the night that Carrie Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 08:37 PM
...except that Chapman was still in London on the night that Carrie Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

On what evidence can that be said? Thanks, Wolf that would be a tremendous problem!

Christine
02-02-2009, 08:53 PM
If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

...then we have a series of murders committed by a man who seemed to enjoy changing his M.O., and who seemed to get some sort of pleasure out of various kinds of sadism and depravity, without being compelled to follow any particular patterns.

The problem is that you've got three ifs there, and that any none, two, or all three could be true, but that the bulk of the evidence points to none of the above. When you start allowing three implausible ifs into your calculations, you've got all sorts of possible scenarios, including ones like Walter Sickert racing all over England and France ala Cornwell, as Chris George rightly points out. So while it surely isn't impossible, it's just a little dot on the huge map of possibilities that allow for so many implausible assumptions. That's why I say it's circular, the only reason any one would take this seriously is that they were seriously considering Chapman as a ripper candidate.

I could certainly be wrong about this, but so far as I know, no one is on record mentioning Carrie Brown in connection with Chapman at the time of his arrest and trial, with or without the Ripper connection. Certainly Chapman was named as a possible Ripper, as was just about every other depraved murderer caught later who was anywhere near Whitechapel at the time. This makes me suspect that someone brought Brown up and someone else pointed out that Chapman was definitively still in London, which ended that discussion.

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 08:57 PM
Hello Howard and protohistorian

It seems as if you have "bought" the arguments of R. Michael Gordon as to George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) having been Jack the Ripper, and the Thames Torso Killer as well, which is similar to Ms. Cornwell's argument about all the murders that she attributed to painter Walter Sickert.

The plain fact is that, as we have discussed here in the past Mr. Gordon "over-eggs" or "over-lards" his theory, conveniently accepting some facts and ignoring others that don't fit with Chapman having been the killer.

Chapman seems no more than an outsider for having been Jack the Ripper. As with Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, his modus operandi was that he was a poisoner not a knife murderer or mutilator.

Moreover, Jack's public display of his victims, women who were probably unknown to him before the night of their murder, screams that he wanted people to know about his crimes which is opposite to the way Chapman operated in dispatching his common-law wives. Chapman was a stealthy silent killer, using a secretive method rather than the public method of murder that Jack used.

Chris
Have not yet read Gordan, I am opporating on the assumption that a killer in the condition of the one I suspect, would be very likely to take another victim, for the purpose of experimentation . If I am correct, a killer in the openly exploratory phase is on a hunt to recapture an earlier feeling he had and killing itself, nor crimes like the ones he hsd in the past are fitting his goal. In his mind, more experimentation is required. He views the recaturing of this earlier feeling as a possibility, and believes that experimentation is the most effective methodology he can employ in his quest. I was under the impression that George was in America at the time.

protohistorian
02-02-2009, 09:08 PM
If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

...then we have a series of murders committed by a man who seemed to enjoy changing his M.O., and who seemed to get some sort of pleasure out of various kinds of sadism and depravity, without being compelled to follow any particular patterns.

The problem is that you've got three ifs there, and that any none, two, or all three could be true, but that the bulk of the evidence points to none of the above. When you start allowing three implausible ifs into your calculations, you've got all sorts of possible scenarios, including ones like Walter Sickert racing all over England and France ala Cornwell, as Chris George rightly points out. So while it surely isn't impossible, it's just a little dot on the huge map of possibilities that allow for so many implausible assumptions. That's why I say it's circular, the only reason any one would take this seriously is that they were seriously considering Chapman as a ripper candidate.

I could certainly be wrong about this, but so far as I know, no one is on record mentioning Carrie Brown in connection with Chapman at the time of his arrest and trial, with or without the Ripper connection. Certainly Chapman was named as a possible Ripper, as was just about every other depraved murderer caught later who was anywhere near Whitechapel at the time. This makes me suspect that someone brought Brown up and someone else pointed out that Chapman was definitively still in London, which ended that discussion.

I am reviewind the data on Chapman's arrival in America now. I am not asserting that this WAS the series of events that unfolded, merely that a plausible scenario is to be had in the suspecthood of Chapman. Brown's victim hood fits the pathology well, I never asserted it fit historical fact well.

Supe
02-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Christine,

If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

You are quite right. Enough conditionals there to, as the say is possible in the Bronx, indict a ham sandwich for murder. Or, as the old refrain goes "If I only had some bread I'd make a ham sandwich if I only had some ham." Same sort of circularity.

To paraphrase an old bit of wisdom Protohistorian, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your textbooks." However much you try to fit Klosowski into your schematic in the end it doesn't work if for no other reason than, as Wolf succinctly points out, Severin had not yet severed his ties to Emgland.

Don.

Wolf Vanderlinden
02-02-2009, 11:11 PM
Protohistorian. As I posted above, Chapman’s sister in law, Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, testified at Chapman’s trial in 1903 that her sister and Chapman left England for America the following “Whitsuntide” after she arrived in England from German Poland. Whitsuntide in 1891, the year the couple left for New Jersey, fell on the 17th of May. According to Mrs. Rauch, therefore, the Chapmans left England sometime around the middle of May or almost a month after the murder of Carrie Brown.

This information slipped through the cracks of Ripperology. It was originally assumed that Chapman and his wife left for America in 1890 and so there was no real reason to determine exactly when they left England since, it was thought, he had plenty of time to set up his new life and murder Brown in 1891. However, in a letter to the editor found in Ripperana Magazine (no. 6, October, 1993) researcher Neal Shelden pointed out that the Chapmans were still living in London at 2 Tewkesbury Buildings, Whitechapel, when the 1891 census was taken (on the 5th of April). This information obviously put a strain on the theory that Chapman murdered Brown on the night of the 23/24 April and attempts were then made to try and pin down exactly when the Chapmans sailed for America. Lost in all this was Mrs. Rauch’s testimony which pin points the approximate date they left.

In addition to this, R. J. Palmer discovered that a 27 year old barber named Severin Klasowsky arrived in New York on the 28th of July, 1891, with his wife “Any.” Some believe that this is Chapman (although the name is wrong, the age is wrong, Chapman’s wife’s name was Lucy and the couple arrived from Germany not England). Either way, this individual also arrived in New York after the murder of Carrie Brown.

Wolf.

Wolf Vanderlinden
02-02-2009, 11:14 PM
Christine. Chapman was connected with the Brown murder at the time of his arrest and trial in at least one London newspaper. This theory was given some credence when the Pall Mall Gazette later interviewed the retired Chief Inspector Frederick Abberline in an interview published 24 March, 1903. Abberline stated:
“....there is a coincidence also in the fact that the murders ceased in London when 'Chapman' went to America, while similar murders began to be perpetrated in America after he landed there.”

And:
“It is a remarkable thing...that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began…”

In a follow-up interview, published on the 31st of March, 1903, Abberline also stated:
“...Seeing that the same kind of murders began in America afterwards, there is much more reason to think the man emigrated.”

In actual fact there was no series of Ripper-like murders in the brief period that Chapman lived in the United States. The closest thing was the Brown murder which was actually dissimilar to the Ripper murders in several key ways.

Wolf.

Christine
02-02-2009, 11:21 PM
Christine. Chapman was connected with the Brown murder at the time of his arrest and trial in at least one London newspaper. This theory was given some credence when the Pall Mall Gazette later interviewed the retired Chief Inspector Frederick Abberline in an interview published 24 March, 1903. Abberline stated:
“....there is a coincidence also in the fact that the murders ceased in London when 'Chapman' went to America, while similar murders began to be perpetrated in America after he landed there.”

And:
“It is a remarkable thing...that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began…”

In a follow-up interview, published on the 31st of March, 1903, Abberline also stated:
“...Seeing that the same kind of murders began in America afterwards, there is much more reason to think the man emigrated.”

In actual fact there was no series of Ripper-like murders in the brief period that Chapman lived in the United States. The closest thing was the Brown murder which was actually dissimilar to the Ripper murders in several key ways.

Wolf.

Thanks Wolf. It's hard to know what to make of this, if in fact Chapman did not arrive in America until May 1891. If he means Brown's murder, then either he had information we don't, or he was mistaken. On the other hand, this is vague enough so that it could be referring some other crime. As such we are back to the problems I mentioned before. If you allow for enough variations, there were Ripper crimes all over the place.

Sam Flynn
02-02-2009, 11:35 PM
In addition to this, R. J. Palmer discovered that a 27 year old barber named Severin Klasowsky arrived in New York on the 28th of July, 1891, with his wife “Any.” Some believe that this is Chapman - although the name is wrong, the age is wrong, Chapman’s wife’s name was Lucy and the couple arrived from Germany not EnglandI read somewhere (source not immediately available, so forgive me) that it was cheaper to cross the Atlantic by "hopping" from London to a port in continental Europe, and "doubling back" on yourself, than it was to sail from London direct to the USA.

protohistorian
02-03-2009, 08:14 AM
Have not yet read Gordan, I am opporating on the assumption that a killer in the condition of the one I suspect, would be very likely to take another victim, for the purpose of experimentation . If I am correct, a killer in the openly exploratory phase is on a hunt to recapture an earlier feeling he had and killing itself, nor crimes like the ones he hsd in the past are fitting his goal. In his mind, more experimentation is required. He views the recaturing of this earlier feeling as a possibility, and believes that experimentation is the most effective methodology he can employ in his quest. I was under the impression that George was in America at the time.

O.K. now 100 pages into Gordon's book on the American Ripper crimes and I would like to unconditionally distance myself from that. I think Chapman's pathology is right, but I cannot go to such elborate pains to include him. You have all been very kind in tolerating me. I need to go back to primary facts and do some re evaluation. For the record, I do not believe Chapman could or would have committed the crimes Gordan has proposed thus far. You we are kind for not using the word idiot when referring to me if that is the caliber of my expressed opinions.

jmenges
02-03-2009, 08:55 AM
You can read quite a bit of R. Michael Gordon's first book, Alias Jack the Ripper, online at Google Books.

http://tinyurl.com/bnce8x

JM

ChrisGeorge
02-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Christine. Chapman was connected with the Brown murder at the time of his arrest and trial in at least one London newspaper. This theory was given some credence when the Pall Mall Gazette later interviewed the retired Chief Inspector Frederick Abberline in an interview published 24 March, 1903. Abberline stated:
“....there is a coincidence also in the fact that the murders ceased in London when 'Chapman' went to America, while similar murders began to be perpetrated in America after he landed there.”

And:
“It is a remarkable thing...that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began…”

In a follow-up interview, published on the 31st of March, 1903, Abberline also stated:
“...Seeing that the same kind of murders began in America afterwards, there is much more reason to think the man emigrated.”

In actual fact there was no series of Ripper-like murders in the brief period that Chapman lived in the United States. The closest thing was the Brown murder which was actually dissimilar to the Ripper murders in several key ways.

Wolf.

Thanks Wolf. It's hard to know what to make of this, if in fact Chapman did not arrive in America until May 1891. If he means Brown's murder, then either he had information we don't, or he was mistaken. On the other hand, this is vague enough so that it could be referring some other crime. As such we are back to the problems I mentioned before. If you allow for enough variations, there were Ripper crimes all over the place.

Hello Christine

Abberline's comments of 1903 in the Pall Mall Gazette, if accurate, are a very good illustration that you should not believe everything you read. Bear in mind that Abberline had been retired from Scotland Yard for eleven years, having submitted his resignation in 1892 (http://www.casebook.org/police_officials/po-abber.html), then going to work for several years as a private detective for Pinkerton's Detective Agency in Monte Carlo, before fully retiring from investigative work.

While Fred Abberline was a capable, hands-on and knowledgeable detective during his time with the Met, by 1903, he was merely airing an opinion about George Chapman, and not an informed opinion either, historically or criminologically. In retrospect, his comments are off-base for the reasons we have been discussing.

Now, in the Great British Trials series, Hargrave Adam wrote in the introduction to The Trial of George Chapman (1930) about Abberline's faulty opinion, repeating the mistaken claim that there was a series of Ripper-like murders in the United States and that Chapman was likely the perpetrator of both sets of murders because the dates of his arrival in England and in the United States matched the start of both supposed crime series.

Donald McCormick in 1959 in The Identity of Jack the Ripper, took this one step by further implying that Abberline and Sergeant Godley investigated Chapman at the time of the Ripper crimes. But there is absolutely no evidence that Abberline and Godley did anything of the sort: in all likelihood, Abberline knew nothing of Chapman until 1903 when the poisoner's arrest and trial took place, and there is no indication in the police files that Chapman was questioned in 1888 or in subsequent years in connection with the Whitechapel murders.

McCormick's book is little regarded today, being acknowledged by most Ripperologists to contain fiction along with facts. See the dissertation by Melvin Harris (http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/maybrick_diary/mb-mc.html) here on Casebook which enumerates the author's fabrications.

R. Michael Gordon, as the one recent author to write extensively about George Chapman as a Jack the Ripper suspect, is the heir, if you will, of Abberline's mistakes in the Pall Mall Gazette interview, of Hargrave Adam's continuation of the retired police official's mistakes, and of Donald McCormick's apparent twisting of the truth about the alleged early investigation of Chapman at the time of the Ripper murders.

Christine, I hope this helps put Chapman's candidacy as the Ripper in a better perspective for you.

All the best

Chris

Wolf Vanderlinden
02-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Christine.

Abberline’s thoughts on Chapman would carry much more weight if he hadn’t gone into any detail. Had he merely said that Chapman was an excellent suspect then we would be left trying to figure out why he thought this or merely relying on his opinion as a man in-the-know. Instead, Abberline’s reasons for suspecting Chapman are amazingly uninformed. Not only does he cite a series of murders in America that never happened but he also incorrectly states that Chapman lived in George Yard when Martha Tabram was murdered and he suggests that the Ripper may have been harvesting organs for Wynne Baxter’s American doctor; a theory that was loudly discredited at the time of the murders. Other than the organ harvesting theory it seems clear that Abberline was merely basing his suspicions against Chapman on the newspaper accounts which attempted to link Chapman with the Ripper murders and on the accounts of the trial.

Having said that, however, Scotland Yard was aware of the Brown murder as not only the New York Press but also, reportedly, the NYPD had contacted the London authorities. And, as you point out, there were murders all over the place, including the US, which were sensationalised as being “Ripper-like” so Abberline might have had a vague idea that there were a series which took place during Chapman’s stay in New Jersey. However, he obviously had no real knowledge of these murders and Abberline’s thoughts on Chapman can be easily dismissed.

Wolf.

Wolf Vanderlinden
02-03-2009, 08:26 PM
Dave. Well, had you asked, I would have strongly advised you not to waste your money on any of R. Michael’s books; The American Murders of Jack the Ripper being particularly bad. Chapman wasn’t even in the United States when two of his supposed victims, Brown and Anderson, were killed and for the other two there were far better suspects. It doesn’t help that the book is littered with errors as well and the section on Carrie Brown is particularly bad.

Wolf.

protohistorian
02-03-2009, 08:50 PM
You can read quite a bit of R. Michael Gordon's first book, Alias Jack the Ripper, online at Google Books.

http://tinyurl.com/bnce8x

JM Thank you kindly fro the link. will resd now, no need to finish other book, it has become tripe.

protohistorian
02-03-2009, 08:52 PM
Dave. Well, had you asked, I would have strongly advised you not to waste your money on any of R. Michael’s books; The American Murders of Jack the Ripper being particularly bad. Chapman wasn’t even in the United States when two of his supposed victims, Brown and Anderson, were killed and for the other two there were far better suspects. It doesn’t help that the book is littered with errors as well and the section on Carrie Brown is particularly bad.

Wolf. hanks for the concern Wolf, but it belongs to the University. I will defineately ask when it is my dime. Respectfully

Roy Corduroy
02-08-2009, 04:16 AM
There is info here on the site which could confuse people as per Klosowski/Chapman's candidacy for the Carrie Brown murder. It is in his Casebook Suspect Tab (http://www.casebook.org/suspects/gchapman.html) near the bottom and I quote:

"Finally we come to the subject of the "similar murders committed in America" referred to by Abberline and others as evidence for Chapman's being the Ripper. Actually, there was only one similar murder, that of an elderly prostitute named Carrie Brown, or "Old Shakespeare" for her affinity for quoting the author when drunk. She was murdered in a common lodging house in Jersey City, New Jersey on April 24, 1891, first strangled and then savagely mutilated."

(bold mine)

That is incorrect. She was murdered at the East River Hotel which is near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge on Manhattan Island, pictured below. The Jersey shore is to your left, across the Hudson River by ferry.

4503

sdreid
04-22-2011, 03:46 PM
Without going too far out on a limb, the Ripper 120th anniversary will pretty much end in a couple of days.

DRoy
12-28-2012, 03:09 PM
No I don't think she was a victim of "The Ripper" but I've enjoyed researching the murder none the less. Not to take away from the question of this thread but I thought I'd share this little tid bit about Frenchy. I've not heard this story before. (Sorry for the small printing)

Wolf Vanderlinden
01-02-2013, 09:34 PM
The boys actual name was William Green, not "Greef," he was 16 or 17 years old, sources vary, and he had originally been arrested for stealing a horse.

Wolf.