Mary's accent

[Limehouse]

This may have been mentioned before but I don't recall reading anything about it on any of these threads or indeed in any Ripper books.

If Mary Jane Kelly was born in Ireland she would surely have grown up listening to her parents' Irish accent. Likewise, if she was raised mostly in Wales, she would have grown up hearing the Welsh accent.

Therefore, surely she would have had a distinctive accent that made her stand out from most Londoners? I read in Paul Begg's book that one witness testified to her being fluent in Welsh, but no one seems to have mentioned her accent when describing her.

No one seems to know for sure whether her origins were as she described them, but surely it should have been obvious that she was not a Londoner by her dialect and her accent?

I am surprised this hasn't been raised when there seems to have been confusion over whether Kelly was seen on the morning her body was discovered. Several people testified that they were sure it was Kelly who they saw in Dorset Street and even in the pub when in reality she was probably lying dead. When cross-examining these people, surely the coroner could have asked whether it SOUNDED like Kelly as well as looked like her?

[Sam Flynn]

When cross-examining these people, surely the coroner could have asked whether it SOUNDED like Kelly as well as looked like her?

I'm not so sure that it would have been necessary for Roderick McDonald to have asked for auditory confirmation, when the witnesses had sworn that they'd clocked her visually. I don't recall any inquest where people who knew a victim (and had seen her in the build-up to a murder) were asked to give ear-witness evidence too

[Limehouse]

Yes, but Sam, these witness testimonies differed so much from the physical evidence! Surely the coroner might have said "Did you hear Miss Kelly speaking?"

Also, there are various descriptions of Kelly as fair, well-built etc but nothing about her voice that would confirm her background!

I know there were many different accents heard on the streets of London then, as now, but I am surprised that when describing Kelly no one said "Kelly told us she'd grown up in Wales and indeed, she did not sound like a Londoner"

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Limehouse,

I am surprised that when describing Kelly no one said "Kelly told us she'd grown up in Wales and indeed, she did not sound like a Londoner"

I'd have thought it to have been more likely to have been remarked upon if, having been raised in Ireland/Wales, she spoke with a "Cockerney" accent. In fact, the case of Stride sets that very precedent - at least as far as the testimony of Elizabeth Tanner was concerned ("She spoke English as well as any other woman"). This may have been partly contradicted by Catherine Lane, who stated that Stride didn't "bring out all her words plainly", but then she hadn't known Stride as long as Mrs Tanner. Added to which, Tanner explicitly stated that she harboured doubts that Stride "was what she made herself out to be - a Swede".

[anna]

Or indeed a turnip Sam! Actually, at Xmas I was listening to Noddy Holder speak,when the interviewer commented on his accent,which has always made me laugh...he said wolver'ampton born and bred ..then I thought of Kate Eddowes, for some reason I hadn't imagined her with a Noddy Holder accent......doing an impression of a fire engine.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

If I remember correctly, Sam has told, that some people thought MJK to have a kind of speech impediment!

Thinking about, how little there were Welsh people (and a lot of Irish people to that matter! ) in London, that would indicate to Welsh accent.

But then, if Peter Birchwood found her family:

having a slight Bostonian tone shooarly sounds like a speech impediment in the ears of the Cockney people!

All the best
Jukka

[Limehouse]

I find it highly unlikely that Kelly and Stride adopted a wholly cockney accent. My husband's grandmothers were both Welsh and both left Wales after WW2. They lived in England for over 50 years but both had very distinctive Welsh accents.

I feel sure that had Kelly grown up listening to Irish and Welsh accents, she woud have had at least a trace of an accent and also dialectic features (ie grammatical features) that made her stand out.

I just find it strange that when describing Kelly, her accent has never been mentioned. Perhaps people did not take any account of such characteristics and therefore did not think it worthy of comment but I do think that some record of her spoken mannerisms would have been helpful in confirming her background.

[kensei]

Hello you all!

If I remember correctly, Sam has told, that some people thought MJK to have a kind of speech impediment!

I thought it was her boyfriend Joe Barnett that had the speech impediment. Were they both supposed to have one?

Of course, whenever MJK is portrayed in the movies she tends to speak with a full-on traditional Irish accent as if she's just left Limerick a week ago. But that's Hollywood.

[Sam Flynn]

I thought it was her boyfriend Joe Barnett that had the speech impediment. Were they both supposed to have one?

The story of Kelly's alleged speech impediment was carried by the 10th November editions of the London Evening News, Daily News and Morning Advertiser. If only there'd been such a thing as an Afternoon Chronicle, we'd have the full diurnal set!

[caz]

Hi Sam,

Can you blow the candle out? I can't. Nor could Joe or Mary apparently.

Love,

Caz
X

[Carrotty Nell]

Having just quickly skimmed through the press reports it looks as if the report of Mary having a speech impediment originates with Caroline Maxwell (see her statement in the Daily News of 10 Dec). I am not alone in having the greatest doubts that it was Mary whom Caroline saw. I believe it was one of the women who had been living with Mary until recently, who had taken a peek into the room, hence the puke and tearful eyes.

Mary's unique and very special. This is how I have her talking: 'I'll be saying farewell to you Joe Barnett, so I will, see?' A bit of both, the better bits.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Carrotty Nell!

A case of mistaken identity by mrs. Maxwell?!

Not a bad reasoning at all...

All the best
Jukka

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I am not alone in having the greatest doubts that it was Mary whom Caroline saw. I believe it was one of the women who had been living with Mary until recently.

That is a very possible scenario indeed.

All the best

[Chava]

Well Eddowes may well have had a Midlands accent. Stride not only had a Swedish accent but also must have had some kind of speech impediment since there was some kind of problem with her hard palate. In the East End there would have been all kinds of different accents. I think it's possible that people were so used to hearing all these accents that it wouldn't occur to the coroner to use that as an identification tool, nor would it occur to the witnesses.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chava!

After reading various census sources, I think your vision is possible indeed! Except, that according to people Liz had no accent whattsoever...

Maybe, since there were loads of different nationalities (even Finnish! ), the investigators would have considered someone speaking cockney to be worth mentioning...

All the best
Jukka