A6 murder and the 1967 Nimmo Inquiry

[Natalie Severn]

In 1967 several newspapers, including The Sunday Times and The Sunday Telegraph, Daily Telegraph, The Sketch and The Express were carrying stories about the Rhyl witnesses,especially those who had not been called.On January 30th 1967 ,the Home Secretary,Roy Jenkins,decided there was a case to answer.In a written House of Commons answer he announced the appointment of Detective Superintendent Douglas Nimmo of Manchester City Police.He told the Commons that Nimmo would investigate the claim that James Hanratty was at Rhyl on 22/23 August 1961.He said Nimmo would take statements from all the relevant witnesses;and make a report to the Home Secretary.
The report was a lengthy one but before moving on to the Rhyl witnesses I would like to look at an important Liverpool witness,Mrs Olive Dinwoody.
Det Superintendent Acott had asked Chief Inspector Elliott of the City of Liverpool police to re-check the sweet shop alibi.
On page 76 of the Nimmo Report,he included an 'extract" from his report.
[extract to follow]

[Natalie Severn]

Extract,page 76 Nimmo report

Here is the extract from Insp Elliott"s report:
During the conversation with Mrs Dinwoodie, she said that after feeling ill about 5.00 pm on Tuesday 22 August,she went to see her doctor on Wednesday 23rd August.
In an endeavour to test her accuracy,we saw the doctor concerned,DR Kinsella of lIverpool 5.He allowed us to examine the record card in respect of Mrs Dinwoodie,which showed that on Tuesday,22 August she had visited DR Kinsella"s partner,Dr Ryan at the surgery.
This discrepancy was later pointed out to mrs Dinwoodie and she then agreed that she may have been mistaken regarding the date upon which she did visit the doctor.

So Mrs Dinwoody was bit muddled over dates at the crucial time----no need then to put too much weight on her evidence really?
Well except that Elliot"s report was extremely thorough.It ran to seven pages,the first four devoted to the "sweet shop" alibi.
So why then wasnt this document included in full?
The following two paragraphs from the Elliott report come immmediately after the ones which Nimmo cited:

[Natalie Severn]

The missing two paragraphs:

from Inspector Elliott"s report:

At this stage,I would drawattention to the fact that Mrs Dinwoodie,although confident that the man who called at the shop asked for Tarleton Road,would not have known which particular day it was when the man called at the shop,but the day is pinpointed when it was said she was accompanied by a child.
As mentioned in my previous report,mrs Dinwoodie appears to be a genuine and conscientious type of working class woman.Mrs Cowley,a particularly sensible woman,did say that if mrs Dinwoodie"s conscience would allow it,she would be extremely relieved to say that she had no knowledge of the incident whatsoever.
Here Bob Woffinden writes:
"This puts a completely different complexion on the sweetshop alibi.Mrs Dinwoodie was under enormous pressure--she would have liked to have been relieved of this responsibility but her conscience wouldn't allow it.
This only helps to reinforce the credibility of her evidence.Secondly,there is the critical point that it could only have occurred on the Monday or the Tuesday;and she could only pinpoint which of those days by when the child was in the shop.
Let us not forget that this report was only undertaken by the City of Liverpool police"s ,Inspector Elliott.Acott had telephoned then personally saying that his inquiries 'showed Hanratty to be in the London area between 3.30 to 10.pm on Monday 21st and if the incident occurred on the Tuesday,then hanratty could not have reached the cornfield by 9.30 and could not have committed the murder.
Thus these two paragraphs alone,which Nimmo omitted,gave Hanratty something close to a solid alibi."[my italics and underlinings].

Regards

Norma

[Victor]

Here is the extract from Insp Elliott"s report:
During the conversation with Mrs Dinwoodie, she said that after feeling ill about 5.00 pm on Tuesday 22 August,she went to see her doctor on Wednesday 23rd August.
In an endeavour to test her accuracy,we saw the doctor concerned,DR Kinsella of lIverpool 5.He allowed us to examine the record card in respect of Mrs Dinwoodie,which showed that on Tuesday,22 August she had visited DR Kinsella"s partner,Dr Ryan at the surgery.

Hi Norma,

At what time on Tuesday did she go to the doctors? It's quite important if it coincides with the time Hanratty claimed he was in the sweetshop.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

The one thing that trashes the 'sweet shop alibi' (for me, at any rate) is that JH said he went into a sweet shop to ask for directions to Tarleton or Carlton Road - not a specific sweet shop, just a sweet shop. And there were I believe quite literally dozens of such shops along Scotland Road. Had JH been able to accurately describe a specific sweet shop then his alibi might have held water; otherwise it's in the same class as the Rhyl Alibi, that is vague to the extreme. Only when a detective called at every sweet shop along Scotland Road was Mrs Dinwoodie located, and even then the detective made the basic error of showing her only one photo - that of James Hanratty.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

At what time on Tuesday did she go to the doctors? It's quite important if it coincides with the time Hanratty claimed he was in the sweetshop.

KR,
Vic.

Bob Woffinden writes,"Late on Tuesday afternoon,she became ill.She went to the doctor"s that evening and was unable to continue.page 125 Woffinden.

Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
If you had ever gone to Scotland Road ,right up to the 1980"s,you would not have known one sweetshop from another,one pub from another,one pawn shop from another selling silver watches,clocks bracelets .Just a sea of run down ,red brick terraces broken up by the odd Church with railings proclaiming Christ was inside for you to meet personally,if you just would step inside.
Norma

[Victor]

Hi Norma,

Do you realise what you are attempting to do?

In effect you are saying Olive Dinwoodie is unreliable on the timing part of her evidence, and simultaneously is much more reliable than Storie, Trower and Skillett in identifying Hanratty.

KR,
Vic.

[babybird67]

i thought this was relevant

defintion of alibi...

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/alibi

Note the word 'prove'.

There is nothing provable in either of Hanratty's straw alibis.

So what someone who resembled him went into a sweetshop and asked for directions in a seaside town one day...a day that he was 'provably' elsewhere!

When you look at the details of the sweetshop incident, none of them align. Mrs Dinwoodie's account does not corroborate Hanratty's. The man she spoke to had a Celtic accent. Hanratty was a Londoner. The man she spoke to bought cigarettes from her...why would Hanratty, a non smoker, buy cigarettes? She said she paid the man hardly any attention and in fact other shoppers helped him more because she was busy. He was taken to the door and shown a bus stop. Hanratty's version mentions none of that. None of the details match up with eachother. The timings are out.

Alibis are concerned with proof and accuracy of times and places. None of these vague details are sufficient to be considered in any way shape or form an alibi, since everyone accepts Hanratty was in London with the France family at the time anyway!

There is no Liverpool alibi just as there is no Rhyl alibi.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Do you realise what you are attempting to do?

In effect you are saying Olive Dinwoodie is unreliable on the timing part of her evidence, and simultaneously is much more reliable than Storie, Trower and Skillett in identifying Hanratty.

KR,
Vic.

There is more Vic,there is more, I am going out now but back later,meanwhile:
Do you realise that you have ignored my answer about the time Mrs Dinwoody went to the doctor viz--the late evening ie after work ?

Also do you realise that Mrs Dinwoody was not alone in hearing the young man in the dark suit ask the way to Tarleton or Carlton Road but that Barbara Ford also saw and heard him and that although she did not recognise him from the first photo shown her, she instantly recognised a profile photo of him taken while on remand and shown to her by a detective from the LIverpool City Police?

[Natalie Severn]

There is no Liverpool alibi just as there is no Rhyl alibi.

Just think about your own witnesses ,Jen, Skillett and Trower and consider what others have written. The above statement of yours means little when you have made no attempt whatever to consider what others have written.

[Graham]

JH said he arrived in Liverpool at 3.25pm. Mrs D said 'the man' came into her shop at just after 4.00pm and she timed this by the arrival of the stack of Liverpool Echoes. JH said he had a wash-and-brush-up and a cup of tea at Lime Street Station, visited the left-luggage office at around 5.00pm (his timing) and then left the station to find Tarleton or Carlton Road.

Also, part of Mrs D's evidence:

I could hardly understand him when he asked for directions to Tarleton Road. I told him I only knew a Tarleton Street. I told him that perhaps some of the other customers in the shop could help him and I went on serving and did not even notice him go out. He was hard to understand, I thought he was Scots or Welsh.

She also said that 'the man' bought cigarettes, and we all know that JH didn't smoke.

Graham

[babybird67]

Just think about your own witnesses ,Jen, Skillett and Trower and consider what others have written. The above statement of yours means little when you have made no attempt whatever to consider what others have written.

My witnesses picked their man out from a line-up Norma. They truly identified him. Read Woffinden and Foot and what the Rhyl witnesses actually said...none of them postively identified Hanratty. All of them said they were unsure. The only exception is Mrs Jones and i don't consider her evidence reliable, especially considering Hanratty's own evidence conflicts with hers.

[Victor]

defintion of alibi...

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/alibi

Note the word 'prove'.

Sorry to pull the semantics on you Jen, but there is a second definition given on your link which is...
an excuse for something you have failed to do or have done wrong

So Norma could just be referring to the rather lame excuse Hanratty gave that he was in Liverpool\Rhyl, hence the use of the word "perfect" in the example usage given. You even demonstrate that yourself in the next line of your post...

There is nothing provable in either of Hanratty's straw alibis.

How can an alibi which is a proven thing be a "straw" alibi?

I agree which the rest of what you are saying though, Hanratty would never have gone in to buy cigarettes.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Mrs Dinwoody did not say Hanratty bought cigarettes.

Jen, Vic and Graham,
I will ,in due course, return to other points but can we be clear here, Mrs Dinwoody did not sayHanratty had gone into that shop to buy cigarettes.
Mrs Dinwoody was interviewed a number of times by the police ,in fact including the Liverpool City police but it was in one of her statements to Mr Gillbanks for the defence and which are available to see that she made the following statement:

On that day,Monday 21st August,just gone 4 o"clock,the [Liverpool] Echo"s had just arrived,
I was serving a customer,a man,with some cigarettes,when another man came in that is the man in the photograph you have now shown me...........