methodology of throat cutting

[lynn cates]

Hello All. Whilst trawling through Lloyd's I was astonished at the number of self inflicted throat cuttings. I have attached a noteworthy example (Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper July 22, 1888).

I think this says a great deal about the kind of knife that could be employed effectively to cut a throat and the mechanics of the operation.

I wonder if it's time to rethink a few things about throat cuttings?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[

QUOTE=lynn cates;145697]Hello All. Whilst trawling through Lloyd's I was astonished at the number of self inflicted throat cuttings. I have attached a noteworthy example (Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper July 22, 1888).

I know Lynn -I've come across these sort of stories before...suicide by throat cutting seems to be fairly frequent in the past : probably because people didn't have access to sleeping pills, guns, fast cars, tower blocks etc

The mind boggles though..you have to go very deep to kill yourself like that -otherwise you'r just cut the windpipe.

Horribly, lot's of people seem to have bungled it...and died a lingering death.

[Robert]

With a common table knife. I suppose people would use the knife grinders who were always around. They seem to have disappeared now.

[lynn cates]

depth

Hello Ruby & Robert. Thanks. I'm wondering that, if this bloke could go that deep on himself, is it prudent to assign a killing to a certain person based largely on depth of wound?

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Lynn,

I would ascribe the detail of nearly severing head from body to rather lurid reporting and nothing more.

Don.

[Rubyretro]

=lynn cates;145729]Hello Ruby & Robert. Thanks. I'm wondering that, if this bloke could go that deep on himself, is it prudent to assign a killing to a certain person based largely on depth of wound ?

Yes, I still think that it's correct to attribute these killings to the same person -you've got the manoeuvering into a quiet spot -in the same small geographical area, the weekends and times, the rapidity, the strangulation, the throat cutting done so as not to be messy, the organ harvesting from
the side, the same types of mutilations, the quick escapes, the same category of victim, the same type of location (mainly and perhaps)....

Of course there is 'depth of wound' -but alot more besides..

[lynn cates]

aha!

Hello Don. Well, you said what I merely wondered. It is hard to believe that a table knife on one's own throat could do that.

But, if true, it would explain the medical examiner's dictum vis-a-vis Liz that he had seen self inflicted throat wounds that were worse.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Ruby. Ummm, strangulation? Well, certainly true of Polly and Annie.

Category of victim? Well, no doubt about Polly and Annie--not proven of the rest (at least, not at TOD).

Weekends? Well, that depends on a rather loose definition of weekend.

Depth of wound? Well, again Polly and Annie were to the bone--but not Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

So was Mary Jane. The double murders were the only canonicals that weren't and they were killed on the same night.

Catagory of victims? What do you know that their contemporaries didn't?

[lynn cates]

ink

Hello Hunter. I was not clear if your remarks were addressed to me or Ruby.

If to me, it's hard to be clear about MJ--too many wounds. Did the initial cut go deep?

Category? I'm not sure what the authorities knew--but I shall be charitable to them. Let's just say, there is only a modicum of doubt (if any) regarding what C1 and C2 were up to when they were killed. On the other hand, there are substantial doubts about the other three. (If this is unclear, one need merely look at the spilled ink on these threads regarding precisely that.)

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

A couple of things: The article says the man'nearly severed his head (my emphasis). As Don says, it seems like sensationalist reporting. Even if it wasn't, was does nearly mean here? I nearly got into a car accident, might mean that my car missed another car. I got into a car accident and was nearly killed, might mean anything from a fender bender to hospitalization and even touch and go surgery. The article here can be seen as useless to us for any understanding of throat-cutting as suicide.

The last thing: The murderer of all the women, if indeed there was just one, could have used one of any different number of knives, and could have used a different one each time. Perhaps one day he was wearing a long coat and could conceal a larger knife. Another time he could have been coming out of a pub wearing a waistcoat and was only able to use a dinner knife that he carried around for the purpose of dining. A paring knife? Why not? The idea that he had a favored knife is just that, and idea, and when shows like Sweeney Todd come out and show a killer with murder instruments that he sees as friends, it may be completely far from the truth.

Cheers,

Mike

[lynn cates]

agreement

Hello Michael. I tend to agree. Indeed, what you are saying about different knives could explain a good deal about why the medical examiners thought the knife used to kill Liz was shorter than the one used on Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"what you are saying about different knives could explain a good deal about why the medical examiners thought the knife used to kill Liz was shorter than the one used on Polly and Annie"

You know, Lynn, that I would be quite happy with a verdict of the Stride blade being shorter than the ones used on the other canonical occasions. But I really do not think that there was ever anything in the cut itself that even remotely suggested such a thing.
The reason for the suggestion as such would - at least to my mind - lie in the fact that Phillips felt sure that Stride was lying in the position she was found in as she was cut, and that was supported by the mud being present on the left side of her garments only. The mudding on her hair and face would have told the same story. And since Phillips was of the meaning that she was cut lying down, he realized that it would have been very awkward to manouvre a long blade in under her neck as she lay, quite close to the wall.
This, and this only, would have been the reason for the suggestion of a shorter type of blade: practicality of manouvering. The type of wound Stride had, could have been inflicted per se with anything from a cork-cutting knife to a harakiri sword.

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

It would be interesting to know if the "nearly severing his head" aspect was a cliche of newspaper reporting. Here's another case :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-buchan.html

I have seen the word "determined" in connection with an attempted suicide before - a barrister in 1888 (I think) cut his throat, then tore open the wound with his hands, and, when he found himself still alive in the morning, jumped from a window. Maybe "determined" was used as a code word for "genuine" rather than "cry for help"?

[lynn cates]

inquest

Hello Fish. Very likely. I was merely picking up on what was stated at the inquest.

Cheers.
LC