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Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 07:34 PM
I saw this in 'The Jewish Standard', Friday 12 November 1890. I don't know if it's been seen before. I've underlined the important name and I'll post the whole article in case it's important.

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Rob

Phil Carter
05-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Hello Rob,

Excellent find! I have never seen this before either...anything about Kosminsky, especially from this date, should this be the same one as Aron, is brilliant. Again. Congrats!

best wishes

Phil

Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 07:56 PM
Thanks Phil, I believe Aaron used the name Aaron Abrahams as well and there is a A Abrahams near the bottom. Bu yeah, I think that is our Aaron Kosminski.

Rob

Phil Carter
05-18-2010, 08:09 PM
Hello Rob,

I noticed that...M. Hyams and Co, B.Hyams, Samual Hyam are listed too... and interesting to note that many paid in Guineas, 21s, or half of, or suchlike!

best wishes

Phil

edit* If this is our Kosminski... then he had money in 1890.. 1.1s to give away..interesting. No other family member is listed either.

Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 08:17 PM
Phil,

I'd like to know who the J Levy was.

Rob

Phil Carter
05-18-2010, 08:21 PM
Hello Rob,

If it is Joseph Hyam Levy, it wouldn't surprise me. He sponsored Martin Kosminski's naturalisation didn't he? Which led to speculation re the sighting of the man at Mitre Square visa vis Kosminski (Aron)

best wishes

Phil

Chris
05-18-2010, 08:30 PM
Rob

Thanks for posting that interesting item. The same list appeared in the Jewish Chronicle of 14 November 1890.

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Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 08:31 PM
Hi Phil,

I'm very dubious about the Martin Kosminski connection, but if that is Joseph Levy than it might show a connection between him and Aaron Kosminski, but until we know for sure it's just speculation.

Rob

Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 08:34 PM
Thanks Chris, shame they don't supply more details about the donors.

Rob

KatBradshaw
05-18-2010, 08:55 PM
Thats a really intersting find Rob. I have been learning more about the etiquette of Synagogue attendence from a friend and did realise they are really quite different to churches.
I notice a J Barnet as well! No connection I know but still make me smile.

Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 09:12 PM
I don't know that much about them Kate. Here is a photo of the entrance in Old Castle Street. The Synagogue itself was a building at the rear.

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Rob

Scott Nelson
05-18-2010, 09:12 PM
The "C. Lazarus" could be Charles Lazarus, Jospeh Hyam Levy's loan business partner after 1890.

lynn cates
05-18-2010, 09:24 PM
Hello Rob. Great find. Did you notice another titillating name only 4 lines below his? Of course, the famous version died in 1889.

Cheers.
LC

Natalie Severn
05-18-2010, 09:31 PM
Another great find Rob.Seeing Aaron Kosminski"s name here----I too think its probably him-----and somehow it at last begins to give him a new identity ,one thats a bit different from the "loathsome creature" of TLYOMOL!

robhouse
05-18-2010, 09:54 PM
I believe there was also an Abram Kosminski whose death was registered in March 1893 in St George in the East. I have almost zero information on this person. Chris P might know more on this...

I am a bit hesitant to believe that Aaron would have donated a pound to the Synagogue fund, but who knows. Still, I dont think we can jump to the conclusion that this was Aaron quite yet.

RH

The Grave Maurice
05-18-2010, 10:07 PM
Anyone else notice that there's a "J. Barnett" on the list? I don't suppose......nah!

Scott Nelson
05-18-2010, 10:08 PM
Yes, Abraham Kosminski, aged 39, tailor, in the 1891 census. Lived at 47 Langdale St. B. Golina, Poland. Wife Matilda, 40, child - Ephraim 12, b. London. Abraham died March 13, 1893 aged 40 of Bright's Disease. Death was registered by Henry Bowman, tailor of 53 Princes Square, London. Henry was Abraham's brother-in-law.

The son Ephraim later used the last name Abrahams, but was registered at his death as "Kosminski".

Scott Nelson
05-18-2010, 10:18 PM
Oh, one other thing. Abraham had a sister named Betsy. Could she be the "Betsy" married to Woolf Abrahams of 3 Sion Square in the 1891 census?

Busy Beaver
05-18-2010, 10:48 PM
Could the dates be clarified. Rob's Post says Friday 14 November 1910, but the chronical was 14th November 1890.

Cheers

Busy Beaver :reading:

robhouse
05-18-2010, 11:01 PM
Oh, one other thing. Abraham had a sister named Betsy. Could she be the "Betsy" married to Woolf Abrahams of 3 Sion Square in the 1891 census?

Woolf's wife Betsy was born Brucha Kozminski in 1856, the daughter of Kasryel Szlama Kozminski and his wife Pessa Lux. As far as I have been able to find, she had a brother Jacob (b. 1850) and a sister Sara who died as an infant (b. and d. 1854). It is possible that there was another brother, but I have not seen any evidence of it.

We have to accept that some of these Kozminskis were simply not related, or at best, related quite distantly.

Rob H

PS. It seems possible that Kasryel Szlama was the son of Abram Kozminski's elder brother Mosiek. (Abram being Aaron Kozminski's father)... ie. Kasryel would have been Abram's nephew, making Woolf and Betsy first-cousins once removed if my math is correct.

PPS. The fact that Mosiek was about 20-years Abram's elder thus explaining the closeness in age between Wolf and Betsy.

RH

Rob Clack
05-18-2010, 11:04 PM
Could the dates be clarified. Rob's Post says Friday 14 November 1910, but the chronical was 14th November 1890.

Cheers

Busy Beaver :reading:

Ah, I don't know what happened there. The Jewish Standard was 1890 and not 1910 as I put in the thread title and the top of the first post. I did put 1890 just above the image of the paper. Must be old age :) But it's definitely 1890

Rob

Phil Carter
05-18-2010, 11:24 PM
I am a bit hesitant to believe that Aaron would have donated a pound to the Synagogue fund, but who knows. Still, I dont think we can jump to the conclusion that this was Aaron quite yet.

RH

Hello Rob,

Indeed, a guinea, (1.1s.0d) is an awful lot of money for a man that was locked up in the not too distant future afterwards. The simple fact is that we cannot be sure, as you have pointed out, who this Kosminski is. So linking "the" Aron Kosminski to this list would be entirely speculative, tempting though it is to think it.
I also note that although there are many names upon this list, it is indeed a shame that the G.Phillips listed isn't G.B.Phillips. Now that would have been something....

best wishes

Phil

Chris
05-19-2010, 03:15 AM
Indeed, a guinea, (1.1s.0d) is an awful lot of money for a man that was locked up in the not too distant future afterwards. The simple fact is that we cannot be sure, as you have pointed out, who this Kosminski is. So linking "the" Aron Kosminski to this list would be entirely speculative, tempting though it is to think it.

I wouldn't wish to detract at all from the credit due to Rob for finding this.

But I do have to agree that this is quite a large sum of money (anything between 90 and more than 500, according to the standard of comparison), and it's difficult to see how Aaron would have been in a position to donate it, considering that he hadn't worked for years and that only four months earlier he had been admitted to the workhouse as destitute and possibly insane.

My suspicion would be that the initial "A" might perhaps be an error. Certainly Martin Kozminski and his brother Samuel both occur elsewhere as generous donors to charitable causes. "M. Kosminski" - no doubt Martin - was a member of the Council of the United Synagogue at around this time [Jewish Chronicle, 5 April 1889, p. 7].

wolfie1
05-19-2010, 05:42 AM
I wouldn't wish to detract at all from the credit due to Rob for finding this.

But I do have to agree that this is quite a large sum of money (anything between 90 and more than 500, according to the standard of comparison), and it's difficult to see how Aaron would have been in a position to donate it, considering that he hadn't worked for years and that only four months earlier he had been admitted to the workhouse as destitute and possibly insane.

My suspicion would be that the initial "A" might perhaps be an error. Certainly Martin Kozminski and his brother Samuel both occur elsewhere as generous donors to charitable causes. "M. Kosminski" - no doubt Martin - was a member of the Council of the United Synagogue at around this time [Jewish Chronicle, 5 April 1889, p. 7].

Have to agree with you Chris.
It is quite unlikely that Aaron would have been in a position to make a donation. It is considered to be quite 'the done thing' to do among those who are financially able to provide support to the poor. Most likely either a Typo, or another A Kosminski.
:scratchchin:

Rob Clack
05-19-2010, 12:03 PM
Thanks Chris, I never knew there was another A Kosminski. Something to keep an eye out for in future.

Rob

Scott Nelson
05-19-2010, 05:10 PM
You're welcome.

Rob Clack
05-19-2010, 05:49 PM
I meant thanks to Chris for saying "I wouldn't wish to detract at all from the credit due to Rob for finding this." which was nice of him to say.

But thank you Rob House for mentioning Abraham Kosminski on this thread first.
And thank you to Scott for adding some details.

Feels like I'm excepting an Oscar :)


Rob

Chris
05-19-2010, 05:58 PM
Yes, Abraham Kosminski, aged 39, tailor, in the 1891 census. Lived at 47 Langdale St. B. Golina, Poland. Wife Matilda, 40, child - Ephraim 12, b. London. Abraham died March 13, 1893 aged 40 of Bright's Disease. Death was registered by Henry Bowman, tailor of 53 Princes Square, London. Henry was Abraham's brother-in-law.

The son Ephraim later used the last name Abrahams, but was registered at his death as "Kosminski".
...
Oh, one other thing. Abraham had a sister named Betsy. Could she be the "Betsy" married to Woolf Abrahams of 3 Sion Square in the 1891 census?

Thanks for posting these details, most of which were new to me - particularly Abraham's birthplace and the fact that he had a sister named Betsy.

While Rob is correct in saying that on the one hand the Polish records relating to Woolf's wife Brucha/Betsy show only a brother Jakob and (apparently) a sister Sara who died in infancy, on the other hand both her monumental inscription and the announcement of her death in the Jewish Chronicle refer to a brother and sisters, so it does seem that there were more siblings that we don't know about.

So it would be interesting to know more about this Abraham.

robhouse
05-19-2010, 06:13 PM
Chris,

Good point about the inscription.

I too would like to know more about this Abraham Kozminski, but I am not sure if it would be any more (or less) relevant to the case than learning about any of the other Kozminskis floating around at the time. (Incidentally, I got a second email from someone claiming to be a descendant of Wolf Kozminski... apparently the one of Batty Gardens or whatever).

I would assume that Aaron Kozminski probably had cousins and other relations in London that we do not know about (in-laws etc). There are a number of Kozminskis who were never really followed up... any of these may be related to Aaron, if distantly. But is it really all that worthwhile to try to follow them up? Honest question here...

Rob

robhouse
05-19-2010, 06:14 PM
Scott,

Yes, thanks for posting all that. It is all new to me also obviously.

RH

Rob Clack
05-19-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm a bit out of my league on this one but is the A Abrahams at the bottom of the list worth a look at? Wasn't Aarons correct surname Abrahams? (according to the dog in Cheapside incident). Is that S. De. Jong a person?

Rob C

robhouse
05-19-2010, 06:38 PM
The whole family took the name Abrahams, including Aaron presumably. Still, I am not really sure if this person is worth investigating. Again, I seem to recall that there was perhaps a person named Abraham Abrahams... But presumably no relation to the Kozminskis. I think the last name Abrahams was fairly common.

Of course, Aaron's father was listed as Abraham Abrahams on some document or other... but this was never his real name, and he died in Russia.

RH

Rob Clack
05-19-2010, 06:40 PM
Thanks Rob.

robhouse
05-19-2010, 07:31 PM
No problem. It is indeed an interesting find, although I am leaning towards it being this Abraham Kozminski. But who knows.

Chris
05-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Rob (C)

Just out of interest, were you able to look at the issues of the Jewish Standard for 1888? When I tried a while ago, the British Library's volume for that year was unfit for production.

Rob Clack
05-19-2010, 07:59 PM
Hi Chris,

They are on this website:

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/

I am on a 7 day trial option which I have cancelled as the site is a nightmare to use. They do have the papers from 1888 there. I can access some of the issues, but not all of them, most of them say members only. I can access some of the December issues. If there is anything in particular you want I can try and get it if you want.

Rob

Chris
05-19-2010, 10:13 PM
They are on this website:

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/

I am on a 7 day trial option which I have cancelled as the site is a nightmare to use. They do have the papers from 1888 there. I can access some of the issues, but not all of them, most of them say members only. I can access some of the December issues. If there is anything in particular you want I can try and get it if you want.


Thanks. Really it was just the coverage of the murders I was interested in, particularly the anti-semitic scare during September. Maybe I'll give it a try some time, as the only alternatives to the British Library I've found so far are Oxford and Cambridge.

Johnr
06-03-2010, 01:33 PM
Nice find Rob and Chris,

Someone has kindly indicated Abraham Kosminski's death was certified by his brother-in-law, Henry Bowman.

I wonder if he is identical with the " H. Bauman" on this donors list herein?
This might tend towards the liklihood of the "A.Kosminki" being Abraham.

I noticed there was a "B.Belmont" on the list too.

The portability of surnames used by these law-abiding citizens is mind-boggling!

How do their families sort out the family tree two one hundred and forty years later?

JOHN RUFFELS.

Chris
06-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Someone has kindly indicated Abraham Kosminski's death was certified by his brother-in-law, Henry Bowman.

I wonder if he is identical with the " H. Bauman" on this donors list herein?
This might tend towards the liklihood of the "A.Kosminki" being Abraham.

That's well spotted. It may be that this is the same person as Henry Bowman, though in the references I've seen to him he is usually Bowman (and once Beauman). However, a previous researcher did apparently refer to him as "Bauman", so it may be the same man.

wolfie1
06-04-2010, 01:43 AM
Nice find Rob and Chris,

Someone has kindly indicated Abraham Kosminski's death was certified by his brother-in-law, Henry Bowman.

I wonder if he is identical with the " H. Bauman" on this donors list herein?
This might tend towards the liklihood of the "A.Kosminki" being Abraham.

I noticed there was a "B.Belmont" on the list too.

The portability of surnames used by these law-abiding citizens is mind-boggling!

How do their families sort out the family tree two one hundred and forty years later?

JOHN RUFFELS.

Well, I can tell you from experience, we 'sort out' our family with great difficulty. However, jewish naming conventions are actually all about the given names, not surnames. When I want to compare other Jewish family lines with my own it is a matter of comparing all given names at birth as per traditional Jewish given naming conventions. As we know surnames can be fluid over time with many changes and corruptions applied due to given historical circumstances.
My jewish family in London in Spitalfield at the time was known by several surnames both in census, birth, death documents, however after arriving in Australia the surnames was changed slightly on landing and was thereafter kept as such. But given names were not altered on documents, with the exception of pet names stated on family documents.

regards from the Colonies :laugh4:
Eileen

Johnr
06-04-2010, 11:05 AM
Thank you Eileen,
I was unaware of all that.

Though Anglo-Saxon family tree searchers usually get hints from the common forenames of the children.

I have frequently seen one or other of the three "Chris's" (if THAT is their real name...) on Casebook, get clues about subject families from the common use of forenames or Christian names.

JOHN RUFFELS ( and before you ask, YES IT IS).

wolfie1
06-04-2010, 11:37 AM
Thank you Eileen,
I was unaware of all that.

Though Anglo-Saxon family tree searchers usually get hints from the common forenames of the children.

I have frequently seen one or other of the three "Chris's" (if THAT is their real name...) on Casebook, get clues about subject families from the common use of forenames or Christian names.

JOHN RUFFELS ( and before you ask, YES IT IS).

Hello John,

My jewish ancestors were Ashkenazim jews and would not name children at birth after living relatives, yet Sephardic jews did name children born after still living family members as an honor to the living person.

yet it does make it easier to work out death of ancestors based on birth names of children, also birth order of female and males will influence what given name is attached to them, with paternal and maternal names swapping with each birth. This way I can draw up a family chart of at least given names, with approx year of deaths, even if surnames are not 100 accurate.
//www.jewishgen.org/sephardic/differ.HTM

regards
Eileen

auntyjoan
10-15-2011, 02:11 AM
This A Kosminski is undoubtedly Abrahm Kosminski who lived in Langdale Street