Suspects for Astrakhan man?

[Uncle Jack]

If we are to believe Hutchinson’s statement of Astrakhan man, this man’s clothing was that of someone who was able to afford such garments and therefore we are to assume that he was not a ‘local’ whose appearances were described as shabby. If we are to believe that Astrakhan man was Kelly’s killer (and there are some who doubt that he is) then I pose the following question – Which of the known plausible suspects could have been Astrakhan man? Which of the suspects could have afforded to dress so dapper? If Astrakhan man was the Ripper, does this help us narrow down the suspects due to the fact that certain suspects such as Kosminski or someone local could not have had the money to pay for clothing worn by Astrakhan man? Your thoughts?

[The Good Michael]

Schwartz was described as theatrical looking. Why not him? His story of Pipeman and BS could have been BS.

Mike

[Ben]

If we are to believe that Astrakhan man was Kelly’s killer (and there are some who doubt that he is)

I believe recent polls have indicated that those "some" are in the majority, for what it's worth, UJ.

But as for your question, I'd say Neil Cream is about the closest, physically. And about as plausible a suspect, fittingly!

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

D & D

Hello Jack. Excellent question. I concur that, if A man existed, and he were the ripper, then most of our known suspects would be eliminated.

The only genuine suspects who come to mind (I emphasize "genuine" so as not to include mythical suspects like Sickert, the Prince, Gull, and Maybrick) are the 2 D's--Druitt and D'Onston. Both had money and likely wore nice clothes.

But consider. Druitt would stick out like a sore thumb. If he were the ripper, a low profile would be sought. Besides, he needed to change quickly and pop back to the cricket field.

And D'Onston needed to pop back to the hospital and go back to bed. Neurasthenia, you know.

The best.
LC

[ChrisGeorge]

If we are to believe Hutchinson’s statement of Astrakhan man, this man’s clothing was that of someone who was able to afford such garments and therefore we are to assume that he was not a ‘local’ whose appearances were described as shabby. If we are to believe that Astrakhan man was Kelly’s killer (and there are some who doubt that he is) then I pose the following question – Which of the known plausible suspects could have been Astrakhan man? Which of the suspects could have afforded to dress so dapper? If Astrakhan man was the Ripper, does this help us narrow down the suspects due to the fact that certain suspects such as Kosminski or someone local could not have had the money to pay for clothing worn by Astrakhan man? Your thoughts?

None of the known suspects exactly fits this description which appears to describe a rich but bulky looking Jewish man. I am not a Maybrickian but the horseshoe pin might match James or Michael Maybrick.

As you say, a poor Jew seemingly would not fit the bill.

Not Aaron Kosminski perhaps but Martin Kosminski, who was a furrier with establishments in the West End (Berners [sic] Street, off Oxford Street) and the East End (Milk Street).

But as Bob Hinton has pointed out in his interesting book on George Hutchinson, From Hell ... The Jack the Ripper Mystery, the description given is a bit too good to be true. For example, as Bob validly points out, in the dark you would not be able to see colors and yet Hutchinson went so far as to say that the man's watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it. This detail might be a hint that the whole description is concocted to describe a Jewish looking man and deflect suspicion from whatever G. Hutchinson happened to be doing that night -- pimping or whatever.

Chris

[Uncle Jack]

The photographs we have of Klosowski show him to dress reasonably smart and he is somewhat of a match for the artist rendition of Ashkrakan man. I am not 100% sure on hs financial situation though so cannot comment any further.

[Fisherman]

Chris George writes:

"as Bob validly points out, in the dark you would not be able to see colors and yet Hutchinson went so far as to say that the man's watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it."

That, though, applies in the dark only. Once you are standing against a lamppost outside a public house - and Hutchinson was doing just that as Astrakhan man passed him by and Hutch stooped down to look him in the face - other rules may well apply!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

A gas-lamp would help you see more, certainly, but it was very unlikely to have allowed Hutchinson to have noticed and memorized all that he alleged, at least not as he described it.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

I was merely pointing out that the light emitted may have enabled Hutchinson to recognize colours - which was the point I made in my post to Chris. The rest is for another discussion.

The best,
Fisherman

[Septic Blue]

… this man’s clothing was that of someone who was able to afford such garments and therefore we are to assume that he was not a ‘local’ …

… due to the fact that … someone local could not have had the money to pay for clothing worn by Astrakhan man?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts:

1.) The term 'local' must be defined, in the context of this series of murders.

Without a set of parameters, for the distinction of that, which was 'local'; we will invariably find ourselves reading from different sheets of music.

2.) For any reasonable distinction of that, which was 'local'; it would be a mistake to assume that no one of the 'local' genus, was able to afford dapper attire.

[Sam Flynn]

The photographs we have of Klosowski show him to dress reasonably smart...

.... in the mid to late 1890s. In 1888 he had only comparatively recently arrived in London, and worked as a barber in regions of the East End populated overwhelmingly by poor fellow-immigrants.

I am not 100% sure on his financial situation

It can't have been all that brilliant in 1888, for the above reasons, Adam.

[The Good Michael]

For any reasonable distinction of that, which was 'local'; it would be a mistake to assume that no one of the 'local' genus, was able to afford dapper attire.

This is so true! In Korea, for example, some of my students have one nice outfit that they take care of and that they wear only when they go out on a date. Yet they haven't the price of a cup of coffee. In America there used to be a small segment of society that had outrageously expensive cars, but lived in tenements. Some people dress excessively, or have some sort of acoutrement that sets them apart from others, though it be but facade. It isn't about money, necessarily. It's about showmanship.

Cheers,

Mike

[Garry Wroe]

"If we are to believe Hutchinson’s statement of Astrakhan man, this man’s clothing was that of someone who was able to afford such garments and therefore we are to assume that he was not a ‘local’ whose appearances were described as shabby."

According to his press statements, though, Adam, Hutchinson believed that Kelly's distinguished looking pick-up lived locally.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:

"It isn't about money, necessarily. It's about showmanship."

I can only agree - here in Sweden, we have the phenomenon with poorish immigrants driving around in Mercedes and BMW cars. The reason? They will drive the cars home to their countries of origin to visit friends and family left behind, and they want to look every bit as smart as possible when doing so. Mostly, the cars are not new, but have instead run many a thousand miles - but they are polished shiny to make for an attractive exterior. And an attractive exterior was exactly what Hutch saw in Astrakhan man.

You make a good point, Mike!

The best,
Fisherman

[ChrisGeorge]

"If we are to believe Hutchinson’s statement of Astrakhan man, this man’s clothing was that of someone who was able to afford such garments and therefore we are to assume that he was not a ‘local’ whose appearances were described as shabby."

According to his press statements, though, Adam, Hutchinson believed that Kelly's distinguished looking pick-up lived locally.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

Okay but then how come the police did not easily pick up the man when the documents say Hutchinson went round the neighborhood with the coppers to look for the man??? Once again, something does not sound right here.

Chris