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Robert
02-17-2008, 02:36 AM
2nd November 2006, 12:52 AM
Much of the information we have about Aaron Kozminski was supplied by one Jacob Cohen of 51 Carter Lane to Dr Houchin at the time of Aaron's commitment to Colney Hatch in February 1891 [Sugden, p. 402]. This information includes his habit of "self-abuse" - agreeing with Anderson's "unmentionable vices" and Macnaghten's "solitary vices" - his threatening his sister with a knife and the fact that he had not "attempted any kind of work for years".

As far as I know the only other glimmer of light that's been shed on Jacob Cohen's identity is robert's recent discovery that on 9 July 1891 a partnership between Thomas Coughtrey Davies, Jacob Cohen and Woolf Abrahams [presumably Aaron's brother-in-law], "carrying on business as Mantle Manufacturers, at 51, Carter-lane, in the city of London, under the style or firm of Davies, Cohen, and Company" was dissolved [citing London Gazette, 17 July 1891].

Thanks to robert and Chris Scott for posting relevant information from censuses and directories. I thought it would be useful to summarise the information on the premises and the partners in a new thread.

The partnership seems to have been a small-scale and short-lived affair. The premises seem to have been on the south side of Carter lane, immediately to the east of the junction with Addle Hill. The Post Office Directory gives at this address (1890-1892) Jones and Waters, dining rooms, and Yardley Wright/Yardley Daniel Wright, mantle manufacturer. These are the only two entries for this address in the 1890 directory, but in 1891 they are joined by Thos C. Davies, mantle manufacturer. However, in 1892 this is replaced by Henry Green, woollen agent.

Judging by the O.S. map, the premises were not large, and "Davies, Cohen, and Company" may have occupied no more than a few rooms.

[More to follow]

Chris Phillips

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robert2nd November 2006, 11:17 AM
Chris, here's another reference to Woolf Abrahams. I don't know if it's the same man, though it's the same trade.

London Gazette 23rd Feb 1906

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tom_wescott2nd November 2006, 05:16 PM
Chris,

Do you happen to know Jacob's middle name or initial?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

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cgp1002nd November 2006, 08:24 PM
robert

Thanks for that further item. I would guess that is a different Woolf Abrahams, as Aaron's brother-in-law was in Manchester in 1901, though of course that's not conclusive evidence, and for all I know he may have come back to London later on.

Perhaps we should also be hesitant about assuming that Jacob Cohen's partner of 1891 is Aaron's brother-in-law. But to my mind the important thing is that, because of the address, the partner Jacob Cohen must be the same man who made a statement to Dr Houchin about Aaron Kozminski.

Tom

I don't think anything more is known about Jacob Cohen than is given in Houchin's report and in the record that robert has just found. The fact that no middle initial is given in the London Gazette suggests he didn't have a middle name. I have found a Jacob Cohen who looks like a reasonably good fit in several ways - though it's impossible to be sure it's the right one - I'll try to post the details later tonight.

Chris Phillips

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chris2nd November 2006, 08:53 PM
The premises of 51 Carter Lane was acquired by the Post Office in 1884 as follows:
The Times
18 November 1884
In Parliament - session 1885
Post Office (Acquisition of Sites)
Power to the Postmaster General to acquire by compulsion certain Lands, Houses, and Buildings in London, Birmingham, Bristol and Newcastle upon Tyne.
Notice is hereby given that Application is intended to be made to Parliament in the Session of 1885 for an Act to empower Her Majesty's Postmaster General to acquire and take for the service of the Post Office, by compulsory purchase or otherwise, the lands, houses, and buildings following (that is to say):-
the list includes:
Knightrider Street and Carter Lane, Lonodn (Extension of Post Office Savings Bank)
Certain lands, houses and buildings situate in the parish of St Gregory by St Paul's. in the City of London, being numbered 43, 45, 47, 49, 51 Carter Lane; 2, 4, 5 Bell Yard; etc.

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chris2nd November 2006, 08:54 PM
I have only been able to find one reference to a Jacob Cohen engaged in the mantle making business:

Jacob Cohen
Mantle manufacturer
IN the 1901 census the following are listed as mantle manufacturers:
Abraham Cohen aged 25 in Camberwell
Barnett Cohen aged 42 in Spitalfields
Morris Cohen aged 43 in Islington

Under the description Mantle maker, the following were found:
Coleman Cohen aged 22 Mile End
Sam Cohen aged 24 Mile End
Jacob Cohen aged 29 Ratcliff (born Russia Brit Subject) born circa 1872
Hyman Cohen aged 32 St George East
Morris Cohen aged 40 Mile End
Barnett Cohen aged 48 Whitechapel
This Jacob Cohen is listed as follows in 1901:
3 Albert Square, Ratcliff, London
Head: Jacob Cohen born Russia (British Subject) aged 29 - Mantle maker (Tailor written over this entry)
Wife: Leah Cohen aged 32 born Russian Jew (Foreign Subject)
Sister in Law:
Rachel Glasser aged 34 born Russian Jew (Foreign Subject)
Father in Law:
Joshua Glasser aged 61 born Russian Jew (Foreign Subject)

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cgp1002nd November 2006, 08:56 PM
Thomas Coughtrey Davies was the son of Thomas Davies and Sarah Coughtrey, whose marriage was registered in the Marylebone district in the third quarter of 1862. The birth of TCD was registered in the same district in the fourth quarter.

The family was at Wood End Green in the parish of Hayes in 1871 (RG 10/1310, f. 71; p. 23). The father, Thomas Davies, aged 41, born at Carmarthen, is described as a Retired Draper. His wife Sarah was aged 35 and born at Stanmore, Middlesex. Their children are Thomas C., 8, and Richard C., 6, both b. Marylebone, Clara, 2, b. Hammersmith, and Bertha, 3 months, b. Hayes. The family had one female domestic servant.

Unfortunately, I haven't managed to find Thomas in either the 1881 or the 1891 census, so the period that's of most interest is a blank. The family seems to have disappeared by 1881, the father presumably having died (perhaps having retired at such an early age owing to ill health). The only likely entry I've found for one of the children is that for Clara Davies, 12, b. Hayes, who was boarding at The College, Tressillian Road, St Paul Deptford. There is a possible entry for Thomas - a Thomas Davies, 20, b. Marylebone, lodging in Mint St, St George's Southwark, and described as a hawker.

Thomas Coughtrey Davies definitely surfaces again in the third quarter of 1900, when his marriage to Venetia Goold was registered in Pancras district. In the 1901 census the couple was living at Fawcett Road, Aldeburgh, Suffolk, he being described as a "Furniture Cloth[ier]y & Drapery Agent", 38, b. Edgware Road, London, and she appearing as "Venicia" Davis, aged 30, b. Norwich, Debenham Rd[?].

Chris Phillips

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chris2nd November 2006, 09:01 PM
There is also a notice relating to the sale of 51 Carter Lane in 1882:
The Times
9 May 1882

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chris2nd November 2006, 09:10 PM
The Jacob Cohen, mantle maker, of Albert square mentioned above may well have some family connection with the story below:

Times
7 February 1901

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Robert
02-17-2008, 02:38 AM
2nd November 2006, 09:57 PM
The Jacob Cohen I thought fitted reasonably well was the only Jacob Cohen listed in the commercial section of the 1891 Post Office Directory. Not anything specifically to do with mantles, just a tailor, at 28 Sandy's row, Spitalfields. The 1891 census describes him as a "Cloth Merchant", however.

In summary:

Jacob Cohen was born in Russian Poland c. 1837-1841. A birthplace is given in the 1861 census, beginning Carli..., and possibly reading "Carlish"; at any rate, I think this is intended to be Kalisz.

Oddly, he is described as a British Subject in 1861, but in 1901 there is a ditto after his place of birth, denoting "Foreign Subject".

His marriage to Sarah Levy was registered in the first quarter of 1859 in the London City district. She was evidently the daughter of Mark Levy, who was living in the same house as Jacob and Sarah in 1881; Jacob was described as "Son in law".

Sarah was apparently born in the early 1840s, also in Russian Poland. She died between 1891 and 1901, when Jacob was a widower.

The couple had children:
Julia, b. 1859, b. New St, City L/Spitalfields
Joseph, b. c. 1862, Stepney/Spitalfields
Reuben, b. c. 1866, Manchester, Lancashire
Hannah/Annie, b. 1870, Stepney/Spitalfields
Esther, b. 1872, Spitalfields
Rose/Rosy, b. c. 1876, London/Whitechapel
Pessa/Priscilla, b. c. 1878, Manchester, Lancashire
Aaron, b. c. 1884, London

The family appears in the following censuses:

1861. 2 Charles Street, Stepney. Jacob is described as a Cap Maker.
With daughter Julia.
The household includes a servant [?]Emma Do (for Cohen), aged 19, b. "Hoton Old Town Middx". (I suspect she has been given the surname Cohen in error.) [RG 9/268, f. 24b; p. 30]

1871. 110 Middlesex Street, Whitechapel. Jacob is a Cap Maker.
With children Julia, Joseph, Reuben and Hannah.
[RG 10/519, f. 19; p. 5]

1881. 28 Sandys Row. Jacob is a Cap Maker.
He is described as Son in Law of Mark Levy, Draper, aged 80, b. Russia [i.e. presumably Russian Poland].
With children Joseph, Reuben, Julia, Annie, Esther, Rosy, Priscilla, and also a cousin Rachel Aaron, aged 40, b. Russia [i.e. presumably Russian Poland].
[RG 11/437, f. 93; p. 20]

1891. 28 Sandy Row. Jacob is a Cloth Merchant, described as an employer (perhaps employing his daughter Pessa, who is a Dress Maker). The family occupies two rooms.
With children Reuben, Rose, Pessa and Aaron.
[RG 12/275, f. 32; p. 5]

1901. 26 Albert Square, Ratcliff. I can't decipher Jacob's occupation, which appears to read something like "T....y dealer".
Jacob is a widower, with daughters Rose and Priscilla.
[RG 13/319, f. 22; p. 35]

I thought this Jacob fitted reasonably well. He is a Polish Jew, apparently from the same area of Poland as Aaron's family; he is described as a tailor or cap maker, but also at various times a merchant or dealer. There is also a Manchester connection, which might fit in with Woolf Abrahams's move there in the late 1890s.

But the remarkable thing is that Chris has now come up with a mantle maker named Jacob Cohen from the 1901 census, who lives in the same place - Albert Square, Ratcliff - as the Jacob I had been looking at. Can this be a coincidence? If so, it's a very strange one ...

Chris Phillips

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robert2nd November 2006, 11:01 PM
So we have two good candidates for Jacob Cohen. Truly the Polish Jew theory is cursed with doppelgangers.:)

Certainly the evidence suggests that Jacob knew the Kosminski family fairly well, from the amount of info he provided and the fact that he got involved at all. But if Woolf Abrahams, mantle manufacturer, is "our" Woolf, one has to ask why wasn't he providing this info on Aaron, instead of Jacob?

Robert

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cgp1002nd November 2006, 11:45 PM
So we have two good candidates for Jacob Cohen.

I don't know whether Chris will agree, but I think the other Jacob Cohen seems a bit too young, at about 19 in 1891, to be a partner in the Carter Lane business, or for that matter to be Houchin's informant.

As for the fresh revelation that - on top of the other coincidence - the whole square was owned by a wealthy mantle manufacturer named Morris Cohen, that has me baffled. My only thought is that Morris Cohen may have rented out some or all of the premises in the square to self-employed mantle makers who were supplying his business. If so, and if they mostly came from the Jewish community, a proportion of them would no doubt be named Cohen, which might explain the apparent coincidence (but might also tend to confirm the elder Jacob's connection with mantle making). This should be easy enough to confirm or deny by looking at the occupations in the 1891 census.

Certainly the evidence suggests that Jacob knew the Kosminski family fairly well, from the amount of info he provided and the fact that he got involved at all. But if Woolf Abrahams, mantle manufacturer, is "our" Woolf, one has to ask why wasn't he providing this info on Aaron, instead of Jacob?

I think that's an excellent question - or rather, the question is why Jacob Cohen provided the information rather than one of Aaron's brothers-in-law - regardless of whether or not Woolf was Jacob's business partner.

Chris Phillips

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tom_wescott3rd November 2006, 02:16 AM
Chris,

The reason I asked about Cohen's middle initial is because of research I'm doing into the vigilance committees. I believe that many of Anderson's comments relating to his suspect show that he's referring to a Jewish East End socialist and/or anarchist (to Anderson's mind, one and the same). I'm currently researching a paper along this line. With that in mind, I noticed that the original vice-president of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee (Jewish socialist businessmen) was named 'Cohen' (no first name), who seemed to disappear, at least from the reports, until emerging as treasurer for a new vigilance committee started in November of '88. The press then gave his name as J.A. Cohen. I realize it's tenuous at best but thought it worth mentioning in case any of this strikes a chord with you or others much more familiar with Cohen, et al, than myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

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cgp1003rd November 2006, 04:53 PM
The reason I asked about Cohen's middle initial is because of research I'm doing into the vigilance committees. I believe that many of Anderson's comments relating to his suspect show that he's referring to a Jewish East End socialist and/or anarchist (to Anderson's mind, one and the same). I'm currently researching a paper along this line. With that in mind, I noticed that the original vice-president of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee (Jewish socialist businessmen) was named 'Cohen' (no first name), who seemed to disappear, at least from the reports, until emerging as treasurer for a new vigilance committee started in November of '88. The press then gave his name as J.A. Cohen. I realize it's tenuous at best but thought it worth mentioning in case any of this strikes a chord with you or others much more familiar with Cohen, et al, than myself.

As I mentioned, I suspect it's not the same man. Maybe it would be worth trying the Post Office Directories (if you haven't already) for a likely J. A. Cohen. If he's a businessman, I'd hope he would be listed.

The census records also often give the middle initial, though presumably at the whim of the enumerator - and these initials have often been mistranscribed by modern indexers, as initials tend to be.

The trouble is that Cohen was a very common name. The more I look, the more doubtful I am about the tentative identification of Jacob Cohen I suggested above. Certainly some definite confirmation is needed before Jacob Cohen of Carter Lane can be identified. But it certainly helps a lot to know that Carter Lane was his business address, rather than a temporary accommodation address, and to have an indication of the line of work he was in.

Chris Phillips

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robert4th November 2006, 09:33 AM
Tom, itís very hard to find a suitable candidate for J.A. Cohen. Here is a possible, though itís not Whitechapel, from the London Gazette Oct 6th reported Times Oct 7th 1885.

Chris, yes Chrisís one does seem too young, but then look at this, from London Gazette Mar 13th reported Times Mar 14th 1885.

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Robert
02-17-2008, 02:40 AM
7th November 2006, 03:28 PM
Here's a candidate suggested by Paul Begg in an email some time ago:

1891 census

RG12/301/F 81/p. 9 Mile End Old Town Stepney

30 Greenfield Street

Jacob Cohen, head, m. 25, tailor employer b. Russian Poland
Sarah, wife, f. 23, B. Russian Poland
Amelia, daughter, 3, B. London, Commercial Rd.
Sam, Brother, 21, machinist, b. Russian, Poland

Interestingly, this Cohen was close in age to Woolf Abrahams. He lived in close promimity to Sion Square. Could he have made cloaks or capes(mantles)?

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tom_wescott7th November 2006, 04:36 PM
Robert,

Thanks for that. I agree that since he was not an East Ender, odds are that's not the man.

Everyone,

Is it possible that Woolf Abrahams and Jacob Cohen (and possibly Israel Schwartz among others) appear elsewhere in the written record, but we're missing them because they had anglicized names? That seems to have been rather common with the Jews of the East End. A few examples from Berner Street: William Wess (Woolf Wess), Philip Krantz (Jacob Rombro), Isaacs (Isaac Kozebrodsky).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

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robhouse7th November 2006, 06:52 PM
I may be completely wrong here, but I was under the impression that "mantle" referred to a lamp mantle, such as used in a gas lamp... and not a cloak. Is this incorrect?

Rob House

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robert7th November 2006, 08:05 PM
Rob, in this case, it's the garment. Here's an item from the Moving Here site, which mentions mantles, Morris Cohen, Albert Square and Baltic St (the latter is 20 years too late for Woolf Abrahams).

Partner:
Jewish Museum, London (JML (http://www.movinghere.org.uk/about/JML.htm))
Reference:
330.2

Title:
Spitalfields Mantle Factory

Description:
Series of black and white photographs showing the building of the mantle making factory (coats) belonging to Morris Cohen, at 31 Spital Square, built on the site of a Hugenot house. View 1: First stage of building 29 May 1895. - Morris Cohen (1857-1927) was born in Brest near Tovsk, in Russia. He came to England in 1877, and began work as a garment maker, first for the company Hope Brothers, and later for himself. He married Amelia, in 1881 at the Great Synagogue, Duke's Place. In 1886 he established his new factory in Spital Square and became naturalised. He later owned a series of workshops in Albert Square which he let out to small manufacturers. The factory moved from Spital Square to Baltic Street EC2 in the 1920s.
Date(s):
May 1895 to October 1895
Community:
Jewish Community
Theme:
Settling (experiences of living in England)
Format:
Image
Access:
Original available for consultation at the Jewish Museum, London

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jason_connachan10th November 2006, 01:57 PM
Ive not had a chance to read much on the forums lately. I still believe Kosminski was possibly "working" as some sort of nightwatchman in premises used by Wolf Abrahams(sp) and or Cohen.

I use work in its loosest possible term. More likely it got Kosminski and his embarrassing habits out of the living quarters of the Kosminski family.

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cgp10018th November 2006, 10:27 AM
I paid a visit to the Guildhall Library and tried to find more information about Jacob Cohen (or about his business partner Thomas Coughtrey Davies), but without success.

The 1889 electoral register showed no fewer than 6 individuals with premises at 51 Carter Lane:

1. Albert Florence Jones (Tenement, successive) of 119 Mercers' road, Tufnell park (51 Carter lane, from 23 Addle hill).
2. William Millhouse (Office) of 3 Wyndham cottage, Summerhill road.
3. George Pullum (Warehouse) of 13 Springdale road, Green lanes.
4. James Parker Thompson (House, joint) of 120 Tufnell park, Holloway.
5. Charles Frederick Waters (Tenement, successive) of 31 St Michael's road, Bowes park (51 Carter lane, from 23 Addle hill).
6. Yardley Daniel Wright (Warehouse) of 18 Norcott road, Brooke road.

However, in 1890 only Jones, Waters and Wright were shown, all with "Tenement, joint" at 51 Carter lane.
In 1891 only Jones and Waters were shown (then of 87 Coppleston road and 49 Digby road, Finsbury park, respectively), and in 1892 the same two appeared.

I also checked some manuscript sources.

The Poor Rate Book (2321/8), dated 5 April 1889, showed a list of occupiers: Wm Millhouse, Geo' Pullum, Ja's Parker Thompson, Yardley Daniel Wright, Cha's Frederick Waters. The proprietors were Pawson & Co Lim'd and the property was described as a house at 51 Carter Lane, rateable value £125. Unfortunately the next surviving rate book was from 1893, by which date the partnership had been dissolved.

A Valuation List (2319/1), dated 17 June 1890 gave the occupiers only as Jones & Waters, and described the premises as Shop and Offices, gross value £150, rateable value £125. The next valuation was in 1895.

The Land Tax Assessment (11,316/481) "for the year 1891, ending 24th March 1892" gave the occupier only as Y. D. Wright, and described the premises as Offices &c.

So unfortunately there don't seem to be any records that will allow us to identify Cohen (or Davies) with someone appearing in the census.

I did go past the site of 51 Carter Lane on the way to the Guildhall. That block is currently undergoing redevelopment - a huge hotel is being built there. However, the numbering is unchanged, so the location of the building immediately to the east of the junction with Addle Hill can be confirmed. The building on the western corner is numbered 53-55, and there are higher odd numbers further to the west.

Chris Phillips

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cgp1001st October 2007, 12:06 AM
The Jacob Cohen I thought fitted reasonably well was the only Jacob Cohen listed in the commercial section of the 1891 Post Office Directory. Not anything specifically to do with mantles, just a tailor, at 28 Sandy's row, Spitalfields.

We now know that Morris Lubnowski Cohen had only one elder brother, Israel, born in 1856. So the Jacob Cohen of Sandy's Row, who was born around 1840, couldn't have been a brother of Morris. I think this makes him much less likely to be the Jacob Cohen who supplied Dr Houchin with information about Aaron.

Chris Phillips

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cgp10027th January 2008, 04:25 PM
I thought this excerpt from an article on the history of the mantle trade in England by J. A. Dyche, published in the Jewish Chronicle of 22 April 1898, might shed some light on "business model" of Messrs Davies, Cohen and Abrahams. I thought the reference to St Paul's (just north of Carter Lane - and west of Cheapside) was interesting.

Chris Phillips

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Thomas Coughtrey Davies
Birth:
1862 Quarter 4
Marylebone
Thomas Coughtrey Davies
1871:
Wood End Green, Hayes, Middlesex
Head: Thomas Davies aged 41 born Carmarthen, Wales - Retired draper
Wife: Sarah Davies aged 35 born Stanmore, Middlesex
Children:
Thomas C aged 8 born Marylebone
Richard C aged 6 born Marylebone
Clara aged 2 born Hammersmith
Bertha aged 3 months born Hayes
Servant:
Eliza Keetch aged 26 born Weymouth, Dorset
Marriage:
1900 Quarter 3
Pancras
Venetia Goold and Thomas Coughtry Davis
1901:
Fawcett Road, Aldeburgh, Suffolk
Head: Thomas C Davies aged 38 born Edgware Road, London - Furniture Clothy (sic) and Drapery Agent
Wife: Venicia Davis aged 30 born Debenham Road, Norwich

His wife is listed in 1871 as follows:
Golding Street, Heighgham, Norfolk
Head: William Goold aged 39 born Suffolk - Commissioner agent
Wife: Susannah Goold aged 34 born Cambs
Childen:
Venetia aged 4 months born Norwich
and in 1881 as follows:
3 Burleigh Street, Cambridge
Head: Annie Steam aged 27 born Cambridge - Tailoress
Niece: Venita Gould (sic) aged 10 born Norwich
Nephew: Howard Gould aged 7 born Norwich


__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."

Carrotty Nell
02-26-2008, 05:40 PM
I wonder if Jacob Cohen might have been the dog owner? I believe Aaron called the dog owner 'Jacobs' rather than 'Jacob' but I think it's a scenario worth considering.

If we assume that Woolf was Jacob's business partner. Woolf probably would not want Aaron living in the house with Betsy and the children for obvious reasons. What if Aaron was living at the business premises in Carter Lane by arrangement with Jacob ('sole occupant of certain premises after nightfall'). In return Aaron has certain light duties such as walking Jacob's dog, a mastiff perhaps. The proximity would explain his presence in Cheapside. Also Aaron's close living arrangment with Jacob would explain why Jacob was in possession of such intimate knowledge of his habits.

What do the Kosminski experts (of which I am most definitely not one) think?

robhouse
02-26-2008, 07:48 PM
I think this is a possible scenario. I do think that it is possible that Jacob Cohen was maybe a relative of Aaron's although no connection has yet been found. He may have been a cousin etc. Or he may have just been a business partner of Woolf's.

It is important to remember that we do not know where Aaron was living in 1888, nor do we know where his brother Woolf (Abrahams/ Kozminski) was living in 1888. I think it is likely that Aaron was living with Woolf, as Woolf seems to have been the brother that took care of Aaron for the most part. So if we can find where Woolf was living, I think it is likely that we will also have found where Aaron was living. Cheapside or the area near St Paul's is a possibility. It seems there was a lot of tailoring around there.

jason_c
03-13-2008, 05:08 PM
I wonder if Jacob Cohen might have been the dog owner? I believe Aaron called the dog owner 'Jacobs' rather than 'Jacob' but I think it's a scenario worth considering.

If we assume that Woolf was Jacob's business partner. Woolf probably would not want Aaron living in the house with Betsy and the children for obvious reasons. What if Aaron was living at the business premises in Carter Lane by arrangement with Jacob ('sole occupant of certain premises after nightfall'). In return Aaron has certain light duties such as walking Jacob's dog, a mastiff perhaps. The proximity would explain his presence in Cheapside. Also Aaron's close living arrangment with Jacob would explain why Jacob was in possession of such intimate knowledge of his habits.

What do the Kosminski experts (of which I am most definitely not one) think?

Thats my take on things also. Aaron hadnt attempted work for years. My theory is that he was some type of nightwatchman for Jacob's and Wolf's business premises. This would be menial work and kept his solitary vices away from the Kosminski family.

Robert
03-13-2008, 10:22 PM
I think it's quite possible that Aaron said something like, "It's not my dog, it's Jacob's" and this got turned into a Mr Jacobs being the owner.

Chris Scott
05-08-2008, 01:08 AM
Just for info here is the notice from the London Gazette

17 July 1891

Chris Scott
05-08-2008, 01:24 AM
Is this the same Woolf Abrahams?
23 Feb 1906

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 01:47 AM
1]A view of Carter lane today.

2]59A Carter Lane [hairdressers].I think I remember right -this hair dressers is at the junction of Addle Street and Carter Lane-South side.If Chris Philips is right then 51 was the shop opposite,just visible on the left of the photo.

Chris Scott
05-08-2008, 01:53 AM
Hi Norma
many thanks for those - great pics
Chris

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 02:04 AM
Thanks Chris.I like those photos myself because they show how London often doesnt change that much----they are the original shop fronts-with a bit of upkeep-----pity the last page turned over so quickly......
Cheers
Norma

Tom_Wescott
05-08-2008, 02:07 AM
Great photos, Natalie. But what's this Norma business?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Chris
05-08-2008, 02:09 AM
2]59A Carter Lane [hairdressers].I think I remember right -this hair dressers is at the junction of Addle Street and Carter Lane-South side.If Chris Philips is right then 51 was the shop opposite,just visible on the left of the photo.

I think your photo shows the junction of Carter Lane with St Andrew's Hill, not Addle Hill.

The junction with Addle Hill is the next one to the east. Number 51 was on the south-eastern corner of the junction (that site has just been redeveloped) and number 53 remains on the south-western corner.

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 02:45 AM
Well you might be right Chris,I think I am in a permanent state of being addled!:laugh4:
Tom,
my name is Norma.....
I know:oops:

John Savage
05-08-2008, 04:07 AM
Hi Norma,

Thanks for the pics, they bring back memories as I used to work down that street many, many years ago.

Our office overlooked a garden at the rear, which I was told had once been a plague pit, and the cellars where said to be part of the old Blackfriars Monastry.

If you want more information on Carter Lane, or indeed, St. Anthony by the Wardrobe, try: www.ludgatecircus.com

Rgds
John

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 06:27 PM
A few more I took today of Carter Lane and its environs:

1]53 Carter Lane, in place Chris pointed out the corner of Addle Lane.As it was in 1888 -structurally.But number 51 Carter Lane which would have stood on the opposite corner has been demolished.These were Cohen"s premises but now covered in hoarding with brand new flats emerging.




2]people enjoying today"s sunshine in the garden"s of St Paul"s Cathedral.





Thanks John.I think I have a photo of the place you mean with the raised Church yard and will post it later if I find it.Its a fascinating area.I am going to post a couple more later of the area around Cannon Street-still very City Commuter -ish!

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 09:00 PM
John,
This is the site of the original Blackfriars and has the give away "raised ground" that indicates it was used as a surpluss burial ground for the thousands of Londoners who died from the plague- as you wrote.It also has a plaque saying so.
Best
Norma

Natalie Severn
05-08-2008, 09:28 PM
1]Post house in St Andrews Hill which crosses Carter Lane
2]An old Pub in the area-The Bell
3]The Bell
4] Shop in Carter Lane like number 51 would have been

Natalie Severn
05-09-2008, 01:03 AM
I thought the photos so far have omitted the focus of the area-viz St Paul"s Cathedral itself----so here it is.But i understand dogs are not allowed in its gardens these days,muzzled or not.

John Savage
05-09-2008, 03:16 AM
Hi Natalie,

Thanks for the pics, however I think the street may have become smarter since I used to be there.

Nice to see the plague pit as well - loverley place to eat your sandwiches of a lunchtime!

Rgds
John