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jmenges
06-11-2009, 09:29 AM
Thread for discussion of Rippercast

Episode 46: The Non-Canonical Victims: Part One

Available to stream, download or subscribe via iTunes for FREE here:

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=91

Featuring the voices of AP Wolf, John Bennett, Ally Ryder and Gareth Williams.

Thanks to all who participated in this episode and...

Thanks for listening!

:operator:

JM

Debra A
06-11-2009, 11:57 AM
Hi all,
Another interesting podcast, thank you. I wish I could have joined in, I would have loved to have been on next week but as some already know I'm expecting a very important delivery from the stork in the next couple of days and due to some serious complications my little bundle is going to need all my time over the next few months.

Anyway, I just wanted to address a couple of points raised, especially about the Emma smith abortion theory.
When I originally did the torso podcast I used the case of Emma Smith only as an illustration as of the types of injuries that were inflicted upon women undergoing abortion in this period and how they would have died in agony after the event as there seemed to be (and still is i think) an impression that death by illegal abortion was somehow 'clinical, instant, medical and clean' for want of a better expression. I know AP like me has read up on many abortion gone wrong cases of the time and some of them were horrific, in one particular case, a woman's actual intestines were ripped out in the process of undergoing this procedure.
For the record I do not view Emma Smith's death as a botched abortion, but I do now view Elizabeth Jackson's death as abortion related.Personally I am inclined to believe the gang theory in relation to Emma smith.

I just wanted also to draw attention to this old thread and the case of Emily Horsnail and 'some men she didn't know,' taken with the Margaret Haymes story it got me thinking that something gang related may have been happening in the George Street area, too far above a coincidence for me.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=35694

Also at the end of that thread I mentioned a piece fom October's Pall Mall Gazette, where the author of the piece names both Emma smith and mentions a previous victim assaulted with an iron stake, and is adamant that the other papers have got their wires crossed and are confusing two very different victims....I'm not saying they are correct but just maybe they knew something that has been lost to us?

Debs

Debra A
06-11-2009, 02:27 PM
I also wanted to answer a good point brought up by Ally, and to some extent answer Sam's thoughts on peritonitis caused by abortion.
Peritonitis was very much a cause of death brought on by botched abortion, if I had the time I'm sure I could bring up many instances of acute peritonitis and severe inflammation of the abdominal cavity as a cause of death and brought about by abortionist methods, one of the Mary Jane Rees cases that have been mentioned a few times on casebook being an offhand vague rememberance of one such case....don't quote me on that though.
I did read a parliamentary report of the LVP or possibly later that suggested that in cases were internal injury and peritonitis were a factor in a woman's death in hospital, that it would be wise to investigate fully the possibilty of an illegal operation having been performed upon her, suggesting that it wasn't necessarily routinely done or that any cause was looked for at all.

Robert
06-11-2009, 07:43 PM
Bloody hell, Debs, you kept quiet about that, didn't you? Well, congratulations, and try to let us know once the happy event has taken place.

PS Does this mean you won't be making doughnuts for a while?

Ally
06-11-2009, 07:51 PM
Oh please Debs, a woman in the LVP would work all day in the fields, pop that sucker out, sling it on her back and go back to work. You know, if she didn't die of infection or complications or something...like that's an excuse to not come on the podcast!

No but seriously, congratulations and hope it all goes smoothly and quickly with really fabulous drugs.

Thanks for elaborating on the topics brought up.

Archaic
06-11-2009, 11:11 PM
Hi, I was wondering if anyone can tell me the origin of the illustration used for Rippercast #46?

I'd love to know if it's from a newspaper or a book, and hopefully its date. Thanks.

Best Wishes to Deb and the little one!
Archaic

Cap'n Jack
06-11-2009, 11:12 PM
all the best Debs, with your new venture... I release a thousand buddhas to watch over you.

Rob Clack
06-11-2009, 11:42 PM
Hi, I was wondering if anyone can tell me the origin of the illustration used for Rippercast #46?

I'd love to know if it's from a newspaper or a book, and hopefully its date. Thanks.

Archaic

It's from 'The Illustrated Police News' 7 April 1888.

Rob

Sam Flynn
06-12-2009, 01:06 AM
Thanks for answering my peritonitis question, Debs - and congratulations!

Archaic
06-12-2009, 02:06 AM
Thanks, Rob!

- Wow, it's like asking a genie I get my answer so fast!

Best regards, Archaic

Rob Clack
06-12-2009, 02:27 AM
Thanks, Rob!

- Wow, it's like asking a genie I get my answer so fast!

Best regards, Archaic

And you don't have to rub me to get an answer :smiley:

Rob

Ally
06-12-2009, 02:30 AM
But he wouldn't say no if you offered...

Rob Clack
06-12-2009, 02:32 AM
I have trouble saying no....

Archaic
06-12-2009, 02:59 AM
And you don't have to rub me to get an answer :smiley:

Rob

Wow, did I walk right into that one... how embarrassing.

Anonymous

halomanuk
06-12-2009, 12:44 PM
I take it Archaic is female then Rob ??

jmenges
06-13-2009, 08:20 AM
Hey Debs! Congrats! I promise not to bug you for a month or two :1tongue:

I thought the discussion on the clasp knife vs the pen knife was pretty interesting stuff, if I must say so...

learning and all...

And also the topic of middle class offenders, or serial killers targeting victims below their class status was a good one. Debatable, since I can think of a few middle class serial killers who targeted middle class women (Bundy & BTK for example) and can think of lower class serial killers who targeted victims from a higher-than-lower class (some Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole killings, example). But prostitute murderers (or murderers of supposed prostitutes): Do they always come from a higher class? Needless to say, being one of the prostitute class is about as low as you can go, so in today's time, anyone who murders them stands a good chance of being above them class-wise. But I hope you see what I mean.

Please discuss...

JM

Cap'n Jack
06-13-2009, 08:27 PM
I think the point I was attempting to make, JM, was that the serial killers of prostitutes seemed to be from a settled lower to middle class, home owners, with transport, and good jobs that paid them well; but they preyed on a very unsettled lower class, mostly homeless, with no transport, and no jobs, and no money... therefore we are wasting our time looking for a killer who occupied the same space and dimension of the victims.

Jon Guy
06-14-2009, 10:20 AM
therefore we are wasting our time looking for a killer who occupied the same space and dimension of the victims.


In an area where where the likes of Dr Phillips and D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly ?

Cap'n Jack
06-14-2009, 08:10 PM
I was referring to their class, occupation and wealth rather than the geographical location... sorry, I should have made that clearer in my initial post.

Fisherman
06-14-2009, 09:01 PM
Jon Guy writes:

"In an area where where the likes of Dr Phillips and D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly "

Excuse an uneducated Swede, but ... D C Marriott? As in the Marriott hotels?? Or?

Fisherman

Jon Guy
06-14-2009, 10:38 PM
D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly

D C Marriott? As in the Marriott hotels?? Or?




Det Constable Edward Marriott
26 yrs. Married Emily, 25 yrs. In 1891 lived at 24 Spital Sq.
City Police Plainclothes Detective.

At 01.58 am on 30th Sept 88 was with Halse and Outram by Aldgate Church on the corner of Houndsditch and Aldgate when they heard Morris`s whistle upon discovery of Kate Eddowes in Mitre Sq.

Fisherman
06-14-2009, 10:54 PM
Ah, thanks, Jon - I thought that we were speaking social conditions ... Clears things up!

Fisherman

Jon Guy
06-14-2009, 10:59 PM
Not Aristocracy I grant you, my friend, but a world apart, and literally around the corner.

Dorian Gray
06-14-2009, 11:55 PM
Hey Debs! Congrats! I promise not to bug you for a month or two :1tongue:

I thought the discussion on the clasp knife vs the pen knife was pretty interesting stuff, if I must say so...

JM

First, an excellent pod-cast as usual. I've been lurking for sometime, and meant to post an introduction, but it was too damn long. So, my first post....

Just a few general points concerning the difference between pen/pocket knives and clasp-knives. Both are folding knives. A clasp-knife locks into position and will act like a fixed blade until unlocked. The mechanism to unlock the blade varies with the maker. Usually, clasp-knives have one blade. The blades of clasp-knives have more heft, and are wider and longer blades than a pen/pocket knife. Clasp-knives also have a better fitting grip or handle when in one's hand.

Generally, a pen/pocket knife does not possess a locking system, though locking pen/pocket knives do exist. Older pen knives could be fixed blades, yet those blades were very short and were used to trim quills. "An ordinary pen knife," must be what one would consider a pocket knife.

Pen/pocket knives are utilitarian: a common tool one might carry for daily activities. Clasp-knives, in my experience, are used by people who need a good knife. For instance, I've always carried a pocket knife, but while hunting with my grandfather as a child he would bring his clasp knife to dress the kill.

One last point: If the blade does not lock into position and pressure is accidently applied to the top of the blade, the blade will fold back, often on one's hand. Been there, done that. Stabbing with a pocket/pen knife that does not lock would be a very bad idea-- one miss and the force of the blow would quickly fold the edge of the blade into one's hand.

Regards,

Dorian

Ally
06-15-2009, 12:44 AM
Dorian,

Thanks for the info. That helps clarify tremendously.

See JM, we need to get intelligent people on the podcast who know stuff instead of you know.... me. :scholar:

Ben
06-15-2009, 01:09 AM
Hi all,

Apologies again to JM for missing the last (excellent) podcast, as I would have liked to have offered my tuppence worth on the "class" issue. If the preponderance of serial killers have come from working class backgrounds, I'd observe that the "working class" percentage of prostitute serial killers is even higher. Steve Wright, Peter Sutcliffe, Douglas Clark, Arthur Shawcross, John Eric Armstrong, Vincent Johnson and Robert Pickton all came from working class families and backgrounds. Many were employed at menial tasks or were otherwise "odd-jobers", such as Joel Rifkin.

Geography may also give a clue to the social class of the offender. A close cluster of crime scenes (especially those that are easily walkable) will usually point to an offender living, if not centrally to their crime venues, a relatively short distance away, and since the vast majority populaton of the area encompassing the Whitechapel murders comprised the lower classes, it would seem highly probable that the killer belonged to that number.

I doubt that JTR was appreciably wealthier than his victims.

Best regards,
Ben

Roy Corduroy
06-15-2009, 01:45 AM
Hi Ben,

With the exception of Mary Kelly, the victims were all middle aged. So I don't find comparing the Whitechapel victims to almost any set of serial killer prostitute victims very helpful. And therefore comparing those known serial killers with the man we seek. Because those other cases had young victims.

My comment is not directed at you personally Ben, of course. This is done all the time in books, articles and on the boards. I don't agree with it.

Roy

Sam Flynn
06-15-2009, 01:56 AM
Hi Roy,With the exception of Mary Kelly, the victims were all middle aged. So I don't find comparing the Whitechapel victims to almost any set of serial killer prostitute victims very helpful.
As Ally - rightly - pointed out in the podcast, SKs tend to target the vulnerable. (Personally, I'd observe that one-off offenders - whether killers or not - tend to do much the same.) It just so happens that a high proportion of vulnerable women over the age of 40 ended up on the streets around Victorian slums. If Sutcliffe, Ridgway or Wright had lived in 19th Century London, I wouldn't be surprised if most of their victims would have had a similar "profile" to those of the Whitechapel Murderers (plural).

Archaic
06-15-2009, 06:12 AM
I just want to say "Hi" & welcome Dorian Gray to the boards.

You named yourself after one of my favorite novels, so I like you already!

And thanks for the info on the pen-knife/clasp-knife comparison; much appreciated.
I found this site selling REAL Pen-Knives. I sure hope schools know about them; they look pretty dangerous
http://www.tbotech.com/penknives.htm

Best regards, Archaic

Cap'n Jack
06-15-2009, 09:27 AM
I'm not fully up to speed on every killer Ben mentions, but I do suspect most were home owners, wage earners and with transport... this is the distinction I have been trying to make, as this moves them into a class somewhat above a homeless, wageless victim with no means of transport.

Jon Guy
06-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Just a couple of points following on from the podcast.

Regarding Emma Smith`s injuries and suggested botched abortion. According to Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates", Inspector Reid noted that "the partition between front and back passage" had been "broken not cut".
This was no abortion, why was her ear torn if it was an abortion? Why such damage and let her live when she could name her abortionist.

The disturbance the Hewitt`s heard in George Yard on the morning of the Tabram murder was a single cry of murder, and was earlier in the evening, such cries were not uncommon for such a rough area.

Ben
06-15-2009, 03:11 PM
Hi AP,

The possibilites for tranpsort and home-ownership have increased markedly since the LVP, even for the working class poor. Many of the menially employed back then would at least be living in private accomodation and in possession of some form of private transport in today's terms. I daresay that an 1888 equivalent of Steve Wright would be living in shared accomodation with no private transport to speak of.

Best regards,
Ben

Cap'n Jack
06-15-2009, 08:46 PM
I fear we are slightly out of our time zone here, for we talk of times when a man with a pound in his pocket was a king, and a woman with a polished farthing in her apron was an 'unfortunate'.
I'm unable to access the expanded version of the Hewitt's testimony but they do describe what appears to be a rolling gang fight for most of that night.
Is someone here really trying to tell me that somewhere like Crossinghams was 'home' for these victims? It was a doss house.

Jon Guy
06-15-2009, 09:40 PM
Hi Cap`n

Regarding the Hewitt`s "disturbance", the Mahoney`s arrived home without mentioning anything, Mrs Mahoney felt ok to nip out to Thrawl St on her own, and P.C. Barrett never reported any disturbances.

Dorian Gray
06-16-2009, 04:31 AM
I just want to say "Hi" & welcome Dorian Gray to the boards.

You named yourself after one of my favorite novels, so I like you already!

And thanks for the info on the pen-knife/clasp-knife comparison; much appreciated.
I found this site selling REAL Pen-Knives. I sure hope schools know about them; they look pretty dangerous
http://www.tbotech.com/penknives.htm

Best regards, Archaic

Thank you for your kinds words, Ally and Archaic. The official welcome is also appreciated, Archaic.

Wilde's novel is one of my favourites as well, and my username boiled down to either Dorian Gray or Jabberwock. My mother and grandfather were highly interested in JtR, and found the suggestions of Wilde, Carroll, and later Sickert, as suspects in the Whitechapel murders tremendously funny.

Unfortunately Archaic, the concealed weapon website you posted is all too common.

I did find one web site with some good photos of 19th century pen/pocket knives:

http://www.loringpage.com/pens/cat01d.htm

Regards,

Dorian

Robert
06-16-2009, 11:05 PM
Hi Dorian

I noticed that you haven't put your picture on your profile.

I can understand why.:lol:

Cap'n Jack
06-16-2009, 11:07 PM
Robert
one hundred per cent classic Robert, superb.

Robert
06-17-2009, 12:07 AM
Thanks AP! And of course, welcome to Dorian.

Dorian Gray
06-17-2009, 05:20 AM
Thanks AP! And of course, welcome to Dorian.

Robert,

Your comment actually made me laugh.

Though if I were to post a profile picture, I would probably chose:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bacon/head-vi.jpg

Thanks for the welcome. I should post a proper introduction at some point.

Regards,

Dorian

Archaic
06-17-2009, 07:43 AM
Hi Dorian
I noticed that you haven't put your picture on your profile.
I can understand why.:lol:

Dang! I wish I'd said that.

Good one, Robert. :2thumbsup:

Regards, Archaic (And Dorian, your portrait is just charming. I only hope it bears no earthly resemblance to you.)

robhouse
10-08-2009, 09:17 PM
I just listened to the podcast. I was wondering if the reference to the Hewitt's expanded testimony about gangs etc, was in fact a reference to the statements of a Mr and Mrs Reeves as printed I believe in the Eastern Post, August 18, 1888.

I dont think I have seen any other reference to this, but I would be interested if anyone else had.

"Mr. and Mrs. Reeves now state that on the evening and towards midnight on Bank Holiday a

NUMBER OF FIGHTS TOOK PLACE

in Wentworth Street and George Street, which thoroughfares can be seen from George Yard Buildings. These streets contain a number of common lodging-houses, and are not far from a house which the woman "Pearly Poll" states that she and the deceased visited that night.

Both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves have pointed out the spot where they allege these disturbances commenced, which they state to be the dead wall of Leterworth Buildings, in George Street.

The first row commenced about 11:30, followed by another at 12:20 when both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves assert they heard cries of "Police!" "Help!" and terrible screaming.

Shortly after one o'clock in the morning they were again disturbed with terrible screams, apparently coming from the same neighbourhood. They went on to the balcony of their dwelling, and found that there was not only one, but two separate rows going on. That in George Street this time was not many doors from the house where the murdered woman and her companion, "Pearly Poll," sometimes lodged, whilst the row in Wentworth Street was not from a house in Angel Alley, which the woman "Pearly Poll" is said to have admitted that she visited that evening.

These two rows, Mr. and Mrs. Reeves say, were of a very noisy and quarrelsome character. The crowds round surged backwards and forwards a great deal. At last the police came and dispersed the crowd. This did not conclude the riotous proceedings of the night. About 2 o'clock Mr. and Mrs. Reeves heard more screams, they were this time very piercing. Only a few roughs seemed to constitute this crowd, which seemed to be moving in the direction of George Yard. However, the noise soon lessened in volume, and Mr. and Mrs. Reeves then retired for the night. "

Rob House

Monty
10-12-2009, 10:21 PM
AP made an interesting point regarding his belief that Jacks victims were not of his class.

I personally disagree with his view however I do think its certainly worthy of discussion.

So if anyone wishes.

Monty
:)

Septic Blue
10-13-2009, 07:21 PM
AP made an interesting point regarding his belief that Jacks victims were not of his class.

I personally disagree with his view however I do think its certainly worthy of discussion.

The Bottom Line: We do not know who he was, or for that matter, whence he came; so we cannot possibly have the foggiest notion, as to which socio-economic class he belonged.

That aside; the issue might depend upon one's own perception of the various socio-economic classes that existed in London, during the 1880's/1890's.

If one were to base that perception on the first of Charles Booth's three surveys, "Labour and Life of the People: London"; Williams and Norgate, 1889-1891 (two volumes + appendix); the conclusion would likely be drawn, that the class to which the victims belonged*, constituted a very small minority of the overall populace, of the given area.

* Booth's Class 'A'



6793 (http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=81838#post81838)

Assuming a more detailed perspective of the 'Whitechapel' area;

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- [The Liberty of the Tower]
--- [The Precinct of Old Tower Without]
--- [The Tower]
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)

- Total Population (1891 Census): 74,462
- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 73,518
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'A' ('vicious' (i.e. vice-ridden), 'semi-criminal'): 3.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'B' ('very poor'): 8.9%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'C' ('poor' - irregular income): 10.7%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'D' ('poor' - regular but inadequate income): 16.3%
- (Total Percentage; Below the 'Line of Poverty': 39.2%)
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'E' ('above the line of poverty' - regular 'standard' income): 43.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'F' ('highly skilled labour'): 11.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'G' ('lower middle-class'): 4.4%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'H' ('upper middle-class'): 1.8%

--- Click the Quote Prompt (White Arrow) to view in JTR Forums.com ---



6793 (http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=81879#post81879)

Impressive work, Gareth!

I am providing Booth's estimates for East London (less Hackney), so that we can compare 'Whitechapel' to the greater 'East End', in the context of your graphic scheme.

- Total Population (1891 Census): 705,114
- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 708,675
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'A' ('vicious' (i.e. vice-ridden), 'semi-criminal'): 1.33%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'B' ('very poor'): 11.85%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'C' ('poor' - irregular income): 9.00%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'D' ('poor' - regular but inadequate income): 15.83%
- (Total Percentage; Below the 'Line of Poverty': 38.00%)
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'E' ('above the line of poverty' - regular 'standard' income): 44.31%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'F' ('highly skilled labour'): 11.40%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'G' ('lower middle-class'): 4.54%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'H' ('upper middle-class'): 1.75%

--- Click the Quote Prompt (White Arrow) to view in JTR Forums.com ---

Monty
10-13-2009, 10:01 PM
Colin,

This is what perplexes me. As you state, its something that cannot be clarified however Im interested how AP comes to this conclusion.

By class I was referring to the basic working, middle and upper and assumed AP was too. However I accept the Booth classification you use. Interesting stats, many thanks for providing them.

Monty
:)

ianincleveland
10-15-2009, 06:15 PM
Very interesting,most people in Whitechapel and the East End in general were above the poverty line,with the highest % in class E which is working with an adequate regular income.We mustnt forget Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ropper could be described as this class,so mutilating prostitutes is not neccesarily the preserve of the very poor.Most really poor people probably had better things to worry about than topping a few women and escaping the police dragnet.

the fact the murders all took place at the end of the week suggests to me a working man with regular work,who has to be up for work during the week,and has money and time to prowl the streets at the weekend,perhaps stopping in pubs to try and suss out potential victims

ICE14
03-09-2016, 09:38 AM
Hi Monty,

Maybe we'll never know but I believe H W Bellsmith was the ripper and worked with an accomplice known as The Sailor...and they knew Dr F Tumblety. Part of the High-Rip Gang.

All the best,

Paul