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sdreid
04-11-2009, 07:48 PM
Three unsolved English murders from 1930-1949 seem to have some uncanny commonalities. They were Margery Wren, 82, in 1930 - Emily Armstrong, 69, during 1949 - Gertrude O'Leary, 66, also 1949. All were older single women who ran a business alone. They were all beaten with a blunt object on the premises of their shops.

At the time, there was some speculation that the latter two might be connected but it was eventually dismissed.

Could they have been the work of the same person?

More to add-

sdreid
04-11-2009, 11:15 PM
I expect that the primary argument against would be the 19 year gap but that could possibly be explained by a stint in prison for a less serious crime or the military.

That said, there have been longer gaps, such as Donald Merritt who took 28 years off.

As well, perhaps there was no lull. Can anyone think of a possible case(s) that would fall in the middle years?

Sara
04-12-2009, 12:57 AM
World War II intervenes 1939-45, so it's very likely if there was a common killer that he was abroad serving in the forces.

It's a crime however which is probably quite easily replicated - old lady is victim of a robbery and attempts to confront or deny the robber, who lifts the nearest blunt instrument and does her in.

Similarly, it's a crime - shop burglery - which a robber might get away with a few times, then get banged up for.

I doubt we will ever know who perpetrated these murders
Do you have any more details which might link them? - location, instrument etc

sdreid
04-13-2009, 01:03 AM
Wren in Ramsgate with fire tongs
O'Leary in Bristol with beer flagon
Armstrong in London with claw hammer it is conjectured because weapon not found

All the victims were in southern England within 90 miles of Windsor.

mostfoul
04-16-2009, 04:54 PM
Found some info on the Times Archive regarding the cases, in this instance Wren. Obviously, it may not be fully accurate due to the nature of the source.

Ramsgate Shop Murder Inquest Evidence, Miss Wren's Efforts To Shield Culprit (Law)
The Times Wednesday, Oct 15, 1930

The article claims she made contrasting statements regarding the killer. She claims he was "red-faced", "a big man", with a moustache but on others she mentioned he had no moustache. In one instance she claimed there was another man at the door who beckoned him to go away.

A Dr. Archibald mentions he had three addresses of whom he believed to be the perpetrator(s) of the crime, two of whom Miss Wren had mentioned. The coroner believed that she was covering up for the killer and that she was a "cunning old woman" who really knew who attacked her.

Will post the article:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7382/fetch.png

sdreid
04-17-2009, 04:56 AM
Thanks! That pretty much matches other accounts which means it is true or that there is a common source. I suppose it's possible that Miss Wren was just talking out of her head and wasn't protecting anyone. Wonder if Ellen Marvel might still be alive. She would be 91.

Mayerling
04-19-2009, 05:29 AM
Hi Stan,

The only account I ever saw about the murder of Miss Wren was in Browne & Tullett's biography of Sir Bernard Spilsbury. My copy of THE SCALPEL OF SCOTLAND YARD (New York: E.P. Dutton, 1952) has the story on pages 274-276. Apparently Mrs. Wren did know the perpetrator, and at one point explained, "I don't wish him to suffer. He must bear his sins..." She must have been an intensely religious woman. There were also six possible suspects whose names were never released.

Jeff

sdreid
05-02-2009, 11:07 PM
I believe she'd been hanged before the last two murders but I wonder if anyone has checked on the whereabouts of Margaret Allen at the time of Miss Wren's slaying. Margaret had proven that she had a penchant to beat random elderly women to death with whatever tool was handy. It might even explain why Wren was reluctant to name her attacker. Perhaps she was covering a forbidden love affair.

sdreid
05-23-2009, 02:01 AM
It only narrows the lull by one year, she wasn't single and it was in Northern England but, going way out on a limb, I guess Julia Wallace would be worth at least a look.

Although her age was given as 48, if I recall, some recent discoveries have indicated that it might be more like 25 years older than that. She wasn't exactly a businesswoman either but I believe she did give piano lessons in her home so that would be something of the sort. It was also indicated that she was beaten to death with a handy instrument although it was never found and therefore that can't be definitely known. A stretch I know but at least some matches.

sdreid
05-23-2009, 02:56 AM
Hi Jeff,

There's also a section about Wren in The Mammoth Book of Unsolved Crimes written by Douglas G. Browne and E. V. Tullett. Another account is in Chronicle of 20th Century Murder by Brian Lane. In addition, there is also a brief entry about the case in Martin Fido's The Chronicle of Crime.

sdreid
06-09-2009, 11:55 PM
Just as far out on the limb and also in 1931 another woman was killed in the north. This was Evelyn Foster who was a single business woman who worked alone. Evelyn was, however, a young woman and she was burned rather than beaten.

sdreid
07-14-2009, 02:27 AM
And back in London, does anyone know anything about the murder of Dorothy Wallis? She was a 36-year-old spinster who ran an employment agency and was found beaten to death in her business. I believe it was in the late 40s like maybe 1946. To my knowledge, the murder was never solved, am I correct? Supposedly an unknown man had answered the phone when a call was made to the office the evening before and the suspicion is that this person was the killer.

sdreid
09-16-2009, 05:23 PM
It only narrows the lull by one year, she wasn't single and it was in Northern England but, going way out on a limb, I guess Julia Wallace would be worth at least a look.


I don't remember who but someone was also trying to tie the Wallace murder to that of Caroline Luard in 1908. More that likely though, I think William Wallace probably did it.

sdreid
11-26-2009, 01:31 AM
World War II intervenes 1939-45, so it's very likely if there was a common killer that he was abroad serving in the forces.

Yes Sara, that is something to be considered.

belinda
11-26-2009, 12:10 PM
Was the Coal Man Reuben Beer a suspect? He would have been one of the last to admit seeing her before the attack

sdreid
11-26-2009, 04:45 PM
Hi Belinda,

To which case are you referring?

BTW, I started a thread over on jtrforums about Texarkana. I think there's one here too or at least there used to be.

belinda
11-26-2009, 09:27 PM
Hi:hiya: That's the Margery Wren one.

I'll go and check out that Texarkana Thread

sdreid
12-05-2009, 04:07 AM
Ah yes thanks, I'd forgotten that name. Many accounts don't even mention him. I'm sure he was thoroughly checked - I hope so anyway.

sdreid
01-03-2010, 02:53 AM
And back in London, does anyone know anything about the murder of Dorothy Wallis? She was a 36-year-old spinster who ran an employment agency and was found beaten to death in her business. I believe it was in the late 40s like maybe 1946. To my knowledge, the murder was never solved, am I correct? Supposedly an unknown man had answered the phone when a call was made to the office the evening before and the suspicion is that this person was the killer.

I now believe this murder occurred in 1949. Does anyone know any more about this case?

sdreid
01-15-2010, 03:56 AM
Just as far out on the limb and also in 1931 another woman was killed in the north. This was Evelyn Foster who was a single business woman who worked alone. Evelyn was, however, a young woman and she was burned rather than beaten.

I should probably mention that there's a theory that she accidentally set herself on fire while trying to burn her car up for an insurance payout. There was never any motive shown for this. Her business was good and she had no debts to speak of. She stuck to her story even knowing that she was dieing.

harry
01-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Stan,
I believe that during those years,probably early ro mid fourties,there was a murder of a landlady in Liverpool.Robbery was given as the motive.

protohistorian
01-15-2010, 12:42 PM
Even now the FBI speculates as many as 30 undetected serials in the United States. We have much more of a clue than early 20th century investigators, and yet the possibility of multiple repeat killers exists in modern America. It does not strike me as implausible at all. Without specific knowledge of the crimes, I would say yes the possibility exists. That being said, people love to observe patterns. Very often they do so when none exists, Respectfully Dave

sdreid
02-09-2010, 06:31 PM
I'd be interested in hearing more about that one Harry.

Regarding patterns, yes, they can be like constellations.

sdreid
02-24-2010, 06:24 AM
Just as far out on the limb and also in 1931 another woman was killed in the north. This was Evelyn Foster who was a single business woman who worked alone. Evelyn was, however, a young woman and she was burned rather than beaten.

I should mention that some think a man named Ernest Brown confessed to this murder on the gallows in 1934 when he was about to be hanged for another slaying. His statement was unclear.

sdreid
03-04-2010, 06:12 AM
Brown murdered the husband of a woman with whom he'd been having an affair. He shot the man then burned him in the victim's car.

sdreid
03-17-2010, 06:12 AM
I believe that during those years,probably early ro mid fourties,there was a murder of a landlady in Liverpool.Robbery was given as the motive.

During the 1920s, we had a landlady serial killer both here in the U.S. and in Canada named Leonard Earle Nelson. He was hanged in Canada in 1928 for one of the last of an estimated two dozen murders.

harry
03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Stan,
Just reread this thread.I cannot recall from memory,it being so long ago,and I cannot find any reference on the internet to the particular crime,but I did hear a rumour as to a person claiming responsibility.He was a serving soldier,attached to the regiment I served in.I remember his name.I do believe military personnel were interviewed.
Regards.

sdreid
06-13-2010, 03:46 AM
That's interesting Harry

harry
06-13-2010, 01:11 PM
Stan,
This person was known to be agressive and violent.He was a loner with no known friends.Incidently I met him one evening in an out of bounds area where we were stationed,and with a group of Canadian merchant seamen were involved in a rather hectic confrontation with local people.Luckily we both managed a safe disengagement and return to camp.Those were the days.

sdreid
07-05-2010, 01:01 AM
Hi Harry: Is this guy still living?

sdreid
07-13-2010, 05:05 AM
Hi Harry: Is this guy still living?

If not, maybe his name can be given - totally your call.

sdreid
08-04-2010, 01:42 AM
I see that Miss Wren stated that she received her injuries at about 5:45 in the afternoon. That may be a true statement not that it gains us much. I don't see anywhere that a doctor argued against this time line.

sdreid
08-14-2010, 04:43 PM
I also don't see why she would have any reason to lie about the time unless she was going so far as to give her killer an alibi. That would be remarkable if it was true.

sdreid
08-27-2010, 05:42 AM
Why haven't the suspect names been released in the Wren case or have they? These individuals would all be deceased by now I'd think.

sdreid
09-16-2010, 05:15 AM
If any were still living, they would have to at least be well into their 90s.

sdreid
10-02-2010, 05:01 AM
I should mention that some think a man named Ernest Brown confessed to this murder on the gallows in 1934 when he was about to be hanged for another slaying. His statement was unclear.


When asked for his statement on the scaffold, Brown reportedly said either Otterburn or ought to burn. The trap was sprung before he could be asked to clarify. If it was Otterburn then the interpretation was that he was confessing to Foster's murder which happened on the Otterburn road. If he said ought to burn then he was, presumably, condemning himself to Hell. It's sort of like when Cream was trying to confess to being Jack the Giant Killer just as the trap was sprung.

sdreid
10-20-2010, 05:11 AM
Nineteen years might sound like a long span for a serial killer but that has been surpassed by several including Nannie Doss and Adolph Seefeld.

sdreid
11-10-2010, 06:09 AM
There could have been some lack of continuity. Sir Bernard Spilsbury investigated the Wren case but had taken himself out of the picture by the time the later murders occurred.

sdreid
11-29-2010, 06:06 AM
And back in London, does anyone know anything about the murder of Dorothy Wallis? She was a 36-year-old spinster who ran an employment agency and was found beaten to death in her business. I believe it was in the late 40s like maybe 1946. To my knowledge, the murder was never solved, am I correct? Supposedly an unknown man had answered the phone when a call was made to the office the evening before and the suspicion is that this person was the killer.

She was also known as Daisy Wallis and she was found dead on August 15 of 1949. Miss Wallis was described as a spinster but apparently had a rather active sex life that she made record of in one of her diaries. A man who was described as "Italian looking" was observed leaving the area of the murder but is a mystery as is the rest of the crime.

sdreid
12-18-2010, 01:54 PM
As I understand, screams were heard coming from Wallis' business the evening before she was found and that's when the man was seen leaving the area. This was on a Sunday.

sdreid
01-12-2011, 01:03 PM
I don't think that Miss Wallis' firm was open on Sunday so apparently she was using it for a "love nest".

Mayerling
01-12-2011, 07:46 PM
I don't think that Miss Wallis' firm was open on Sunday so apparently she was using it for a "love nest".

Thinking of Mrs. Wren in 1930 I can recall that at that time the only similar murder of a store owner was in the Philip Yaie Drew case (in 1930 also, I believe) when an actor "in the provinces" on tour was all but accused by the coroner of killing a tobacconist, but the victim was a man.

Prior to that the killing of Vivian Messiter, a garage owner in 1928, led (in a somewhat disulatory manner) to the eventual arrest and trial and execution of William Henry Podmore. Messiter was also beaten to death with a hammer, and his body left hidden in the garage for weeks. Most students of the case feel the police caught the right man, but the circumstantial case (while intriguing) is somewhat strained, and it is just as possible that Podmore simply was cheating Messiter on non-deserved sales commissions, and that a second party did the murder.

The Earle Nelson "Gorilla Man" case is interesting too for the number of victims
(mostly boarding house owners) that Nelson killed. Ironically, had he not been caught in Canada (Winnipeg, I think) for the last one, but in the U.S., most of his murders were in states where he would have been "guilty, but insane", and he would have served out a life sentence in a prison for the criminally insane. In Canada they did not give a rat's ass about that defense, and he was hanged.

I think only one book was written about Nelson, a novel by Jay Roberts Nash.

Jeff

Mayerling
01-12-2011, 07:58 PM
I expect that the primary argument against would be the 19 year gap but that could possibly be explained by a stint in prison for a less serious crime or the military.

That said, there have been longer gaps, such as Donald Merritt who took 28 years off.

As well, perhaps there was no lull. Can anyone think of a possible case(s) that would fall in the middle years?

Problem with using the unmentionable Merritt is that his murders were all for gain. By the way, if he is used as a "serial killer" he changed his modus operandi three times: he shot his mother in 1926, and he tried to copy the "Brides in the Bath" Smith method with his wife in 1953 (planning on an ornate, and doomed, alibi in Germany), and he beat his mother-in-law to death (who showed up unexpectedly at his wife's murder) . If he is a serial killer, he disproves the modus is always maintained. By the way, he was also suspected of the shooting death of a German who was a partmer or associate of his in the black market in the late 1940s.

Jeff

sdreid
01-12-2011, 10:11 PM
Yes Jeff, it had been some time since I read about the Alfred Oliver Case for which Drew was accused in Landmarks in 20th Century Murder by Robin Odell. I just reintroduced myself to the events here on the web and it says that Mr. Drew starred in an American movie series called Young Buffalo and was in some way related to the Barrymores.

sdreid
01-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Drew Barrymore, I wonder.:scratchchin:

sdreid
02-13-2011, 01:40 PM
The Earle Nelson "Gorilla Man" case is interesting too for the number of victims
(mostly boarding house owners) that Nelson killed.

Yes, Nelson could be a good one to look at as an example. He was a businesswoman killer for sure. Although not added to his official tally of 22, he is a strong suspect regarding a 1926 triple murder in Newark as well.

sdreid
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
Thanks to the Canadians, we can remove Nelson from the suspect list.

sdreid
04-02-2011, 03:06 PM
Yes, Nelson could be a good one to look at as an example. He was a businesswoman killer for sure. Although not added to his official tally of 22, he is a strong suspect regarding a 1926 triple murder in Newark as well.

Not that this inculpates or exculpates anyone.

sdreid
04-28-2011, 05:09 PM
I mean as a pattern. Nelson was hanged in 1928 so he's eliminated.

sdreid
05-17-2011, 03:29 PM
And back in London, does anyone know anything about the murder of Dorothy Wallis? She was a 36-year-old spinster who ran an employment agency and was found beaten to death in her business.

She was a spinster in the general sense of the word, that being an older woman who hadn't been married and had no children. By indications she was not a spinster in the traditional sense of the word, being all those plus a virgin, that is synonymous with old maid(en).

sdreid
06-15-2011, 05:13 AM
Nelson could be a good one to look at as an example. He was a businesswoman killer for sure.

According to some accounts, Leonard Nelson was the model for Uncle Charlie in Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt.

sdreid
07-09-2011, 05:07 AM
I guess Charlie is about as much like Leonard as Norman Bates is like Gein.

The Grave Maurice
07-09-2011, 05:23 AM
True. But am I the only one who thinks that Joseph Cotton is a seriously underrated actor? I thought his work in films like Citizen Cane, Shadow of a Doubt, and The Third Man was faultless; yet, he doesn't seem to be as well known as he deserves to be.

sdreid
07-09-2011, 02:51 PM
I agree Maurice. He was a great actor. I have no idea why he wasn't rewarded in the way he deserved.

sdreid
08-05-2011, 05:02 AM
In the hard core true-crime field, Cotton also played purported serial killer Dr. Edward Pritchard in his own TV show On Trial as well as Dr. Condon in The Lindbergh Kidnapping Case.

sdreid
09-05-2011, 05:05 AM
I believe the name of On Trial was eventually changed to The Joseph Cotton Show.

Mayerling
09-05-2011, 05:39 AM
I always thought highly of Cotton's acting ability (add his performances in THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSOMS, SINCE YOU WENT AWAY, LOVE LETTERS, and PORTRAIT OF JENNIE to the ones mentioned). His Uncle Charlie and Dr. Pritchard are not his only villains: his doctor in HUSH HUSH SWEET CHARLOTTE is in cahoots with Olivia De Haviland to drive Bette Davis mad.

I think his problem was he was associated with his friend Orson Welles, which worked against him in many quarters of Hollywood. Also he had problems with Hedda Hopper and Louella Parsons, when they had power to make or break a career. It certainly didn't help him. But at least his acting power (and frankly his really classy image) kept his career going.

By the way - on YOU TUBE is the LUX RADIO THEATER version of SHADOW OF A DOUBT. Young Charlie is still played by Teresa Wright (as in the movie), but "Uncle Charlie' was not Cotton. It was William Powell, and he is quite malevolently effective too!

Jeff

sdreid
10-03-2011, 05:01 AM
I don't remember ever seeing Cotton turn in a bad performance even when he was in turkeys like Lady Frankenstein and White Comanche.

sdreid
11-03-2011, 05:08 AM
He played Dr. Condon just like I pictured him too.

sdreid
12-03-2011, 06:11 AM
The Joseph Cotton Show: On Trial only ran for one regular season, the 1956-57.

In 1959, it was briefly revived as a summer replacement.

sdreid
01-03-2012, 06:13 AM
The Joseph Cotton Show: On Trial only ran for one regular season, the 1956-57.

In 1959, it was briefly revived as a summer replacement.

There were 35 total episodes - 31 on NBC in the original run and 4 on CBS in the brief revival.

sdreid
02-01-2012, 06:02 AM
She was also known as Daisy Wallis and she was found dead on August 15 of 1949. Miss Wallis was described as a spinster but apparently had a rather active sex life that she made record of in one of her diaries. A man who was described as "Italian looking" was observed leaving the area of the murder but is a mystery as is the rest of the crime.

The aforesaid fleeing man was thought to be the same person seen with Daisy earlier.

sdreid
03-01-2012, 06:07 AM
Daisy's "romance" diary didn't lead to any suspects so apparently her killer was a first time chance encounter.

sdreid
04-01-2012, 05:15 AM
I don't know if she named names.

sdreid
05-01-2012, 05:11 AM
I don't see Daisy listed as a nickname for Dorothy so I don't know where it came from.

sdreid
06-01-2012, 12:24 PM
Must have just been a pet name.

sdreid
07-01-2012, 11:57 AM
Since I can't find a middle name for Ms. Wallis, perhaps it's possible that one or the other name could have been that.

sdreid
08-01-2012, 12:00 PM
The Wallis slaying actually reminds me of the murder scene of Anna Massey in the Hitchcock film Frenzy. I wonder if he used it as a pattern.

sdreid
09-01-2012, 12:46 PM
Anna Massey, who died rather recently, also played Julia Wallace in The Man From the Pru.

sdreid
10-01-2012, 11:16 AM
I believe Ms. Massey was a British citizen although her father, actor Raymond Massey, was a Canadian who later became an American citizen.

Phil H
10-01-2012, 11:48 AM
Was not the actor Raymond Massey's brother (uncle to Anna) Governor General of Canada in his day?

Massey was a superb actor, often in saturnine roles: he was a fantastic Philip of Spain in Fire over England; "Black" Michael in The Prisoner of Zenda; and played multiple roles in Korda's "Things to Come". He ended up playing Dr Gillespie to Richard Chamberlain's Dr Kildare in the 60s.

Phil H

sdreid
10-01-2012, 12:10 PM
Reboot

sdreid
10-01-2012, 12:14 PM
Hi Phil:

I believe that's true and also Raymond was the son of the owner of the Massey-Ferguson (then Massey-Harris) Tractor Company. The role I most remember him for is as John Brown the fanatical abolitionist.

sdreid
11-01-2012, 11:12 AM
From the same era, Massey also played Lincoln.

sdreid
12-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing the new Lincoln film.

Phil H
12-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Lincoln is out in the UK in mid January - and Daniel Day-Lewis is said to give an extraordinary performance as the President.

Phil H

sdreid
01-01-2013, 01:39 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing the new Lincoln film.

And, I'm not speaking of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter but I will probably also view that one just for fun.

Steve S
01-02-2013, 12:19 AM
So.....Does DDL run through the woods shooting Confederates with a Springfield in each hand...?

RivkahChaya
01-02-2013, 02:43 AM
And, I'm not speaking of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter but I will probably also view that one just for fun.
An excellent example, BTW, of the way it's perfectly legitimate to play with history, and turn out something like From Hell. I personally think From Hell should have been a bit "bigger," in the sense of being overblown and campy, and more obviously fantasy, so that even people who knew absolutely nothing about JTR understood that it was more fantasy than history. I think, ironically, more Americans than Brits picked up on that, just from being more familiar with Johnny Depp's work.

My reservation about Daniel Day-Lewis as Lincoln is that DDL is one of those crazed super-method actors who won't break character even when the cameras aren't rolling, from what I hear, and supposedly drives everyone else nuts. Lincoln was a serious figure for a serious time in history, but he wasn't, from what I gather, intense. He was very homish, and a friendly sort of person to people he had known for a long time, and from what I understand, determined to be close to his children, after having had an emotionally distant father, and losing his mother when he was young. It was sad, because he lost two children, one very young.

DDL is always very intense. It bothers me that this may be the one actor, of all the people out there, who would need to take a Valium in order to mellow out enough to play Lincoln.

But, he was very funny in A Room with a View, so maybe he will actually capture the whole Lincoln.

Steve S
01-02-2013, 10:39 AM
Lincoln appears to be one of very few from the ACW who appears to have had a sense of humour..............

RivkahChaya
01-02-2013, 03:20 PM
Lincoln appears to be one of very few from the ACW who appears to have had a sense of humour..............American Championship Wrestling?

Steve S
01-02-2013, 04:24 PM
Could have been...Got Jeff Davis by a Knock-out.......

RivkahChaya
01-02-2013, 04:53 PM
Then got triple-fouled by John Wilkes Booth (use of a weapon; strike to the back of the head; abusive language). He totally would have gotten kicked out for good, if he hadn't been shot by the posse.

Steve S
01-02-2013, 06:18 PM
:lol:

GregBaron
01-02-2013, 07:00 PM
DDL does a super job of capturing the homey Lincoln methinks...just a mellow Kentucky boy who only gets angry twice in the film when the pea brains push him to the brink.


Rather ironic we need an Irishman to play the American but you need a lanky fellow like DDL. It would be difficult to make a dwarf like Tom Cruise into the 6'4" Lincoln...


Anyway, I thought it a fine film for what that's worth...



Greg

RivkahChaya
01-02-2013, 08:10 PM
Even if Cruise were 6'4, there are other reasons he'd be a bad choice for Lincoln.

But, you know this isn't the first time a movie has been made about Abraham Lincoln. Raymond Massey (a Canadian, but one who had a long Hollywood career) played him in Abe Lincoln in Illinois, in 1940, and he was nominated for an Oscar, and Henry Fonda (born in Nebraska), played him a year earlier, in a fictionalized account of his early life, and his career as a lawyer, in Young Mr. Lincoln, which was nominated for Best Original Story.

As far as I know, though, the first screen portrayal of Lincoln was in 1914, by an actor named Joseph Henabery, also a Nebraskan, who played him in The Birth of a Nation. There were probably people who saw that film who had known Lincoln in life. It was a small role, though, in that film, and he was mainly cast, because he really was 6'4.

Massey was pretty darned tall. I don't think Fonda was 6'4, but he was probably a little over 6 feet.

DDL looks remarkably like Lincoln around the eyes, though. He has deep-set eyes, like Lincoln did. DDL's eyes aren't quite as wide-set, but with some added bushy eyebrows, he looks remarkably like Lincoln. His cheekbones aren't as prominent, but make-up can probably fix that, too.

I want to see the film, but it's second on my list, after the Hitchcock film, with Helen Mirren.

GregBaron
01-02-2013, 08:43 PM
Even if Cruise were 6'4, there are other reasons he'd be a bad choice for Lincoln.

But, you know this isn't the first time a movie has been made about Abraham Lincoln. Raymond Massey (a Canadian, but one who had a long Hollywood career) played him in Abe Lincoln in Illinois, in 1940, and he was nominated for an Oscar, and Henry Fonda (born in Nebraska), played him a year earlier, in a fictionalized account of his early life, and his career as a lawyer, in Young Mr. Lincoln, which was nominated for Best Original Story.

As far as I know, though, the first screen portrayal of Lincoln was in 1914, by an actor named Joseph Henabery, also a Nebraskan, who played him in The Birth of a Nation. There were probably people who saw that film who had known Lincoln in life. It was a small role, though, in that film, and he was mainly cast, because he really was 6'4.

Massey was pretty darned tall. I don't think Fonda was 6'4, but he was probably a little over 6 feet.

DDL looks remarkably like Lincoln around the eyes, though. He has deep-set eyes, like Lincoln did. DDL's eyes aren't quite as wide-set, but with some added bushy eyebrows, he looks remarkably like Lincoln. His cheekbones aren't as prominent, but make-up can probably fix that, too.

I want to see the film, but it's second on my list, after the Hitchcock film, with Helen Mirren.

Thanks RivkahChaya, I agree with your points and yes I threw Tom Cruise out there for humor more than anything....

I also saw Hitchcock but found it....well, I best let you see it before I ruin it with my opinions........we can discuss after you see it...

I did find DDL a remarkable likeness of Lincoln, after the makeup of course, they may have even fleshed out his elephantine ears...


Greg

RivkahChaya
01-02-2013, 11:44 PM
I figured you threw in Cruise for humor, but I posted the rest, since a lot of Brit posters seem to be interested in the Civil War, and might not be aware of the earlier Lincoln movies.

Also, there's probably a word for it, but as the breadth of available knowledge increases, the depth of what people generally know seems to be decreasing. I'm constantly amazed at how much people just 15 years younger than I am don't know about fairly recent history. I would think that if I (I was born in 1967) know about the Lindbergh kidnapping, people born in the 1980s would know about the Patty Hearst kidnapping, but then I think about how much information people have been bombarded with, and how much of "the present" there is to keep track of anymore, I guess people have less and less time for history.

Anyway, I'm constantly surprised at how little people know about older movies. I guess I shouldn't expect a stasis, though. 1939 gets longer and longer ago. Star Wars is older now than The Wizard of Oz was when I was born.

Cogidubnus
01-02-2013, 11:59 PM
Hi Rivkah

From the right pond perspective of a nearly-60 year old, I keep finding the same...and sometimes watching the quiz programmes on the telly, or chatting to quite normal, perfectly intelligent workmates, I am sometimes appalled at how little has carried down...I keep reassuring myself it can't be universal, but...

I was born 8 years after the end of WWll so I suppose my upbringing might be coloured by this, but so many folk are hard pushed to identify even campaigns or well-known events in that conflict...and WWl is a different world...I'm no historian in any real sense, (barring reading a bit), and had only a humdrum grammar school education curtailed a tad by my fathers premature death, but there does seem to be something of a chasm...and it's not just me...the lady wife's spotted it too...

Don't get me wrong - I'm well aware there are huge gaps in my own knowledge...but...

All the best

Dave

RivkahChaya
01-03-2013, 03:26 AM
I'm not sure whether it's me, or my age, or generation, or what. I do read a lot, and my degree is in English, and as it happens, one of my favorite books is Testament of Youth, which you probably know is a WWI autobiography of a woman who was a nurse in the VAD. I read it when I was 14, which didn't seem unusual to me at the time-- it was 1980. I came at it more from a women's history sort of thing, my mother having been very involved in the second wave feminism movement in the US, and I read a lot of women's autobiographies. I read the biography of a woman who was ordained priest in the US Episcopal church in the early 70s, underground, which was the impetus for the church finally allowing the ordination of women, and Diary of Margery Kempe, as well as the Diary of Anais Nin, and The Bell Jar, all when I was a pretty young teenager, and I may have been a little off the apex of the bell curve, but other girls read those books back then.

So, anyway, I knew about WWI. WWII, I knew about, because my father's brother married into a survivor family. Granted, you don't learn a lot about battle sites, but I was moved to learn more on my own, at a younger age, because of it. And, then they teach you things in Hebrew school. They mostly teach "The Holocaust," but Hebrew schools, at least back in my day, did teach pretty accurate history of the Third Reich, and I knew more geography of central Europe that gentile kids when we studied Europe in public schools, not to mention knowing all my European capitals already.

It's possible I overestimate what the typical person knows. I also come from a family of academics.

And I'm fully prepared to admit that people under 25 know things I had to learn on my own, like having a sense of the metric system. Most Americans over 30 can do the math, but can tell you how far 5km is, or how much 5kg weighs (like, telling you in terms of a loaf of bread, or an average-sized cat, for example). Younger people know these things. They also all know how to type, even if it's just really fast hunting-and-pecking.

Like I said, the breadth of knowledge is so much greater now. They can identify pictures of people by country, just by the fashions and backgrounds. Teenagers couldn't do that when I was one. We couldn't look at a photo of people, and say, "They look like they're in Thailand," or "Argentina." They may not be able to find them on a map, but they know how people dress there. I try not to be critical when a skill or body of knowledge is fading. I don't want to be one of those people grumbling about how no one knows how to bail hay anymore, or drive a mule team. Some things aren't so important anymore.

GregBaron
01-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Also, there's probably a word for it, but as the breadth of available knowledge increases, the depth of what people generally know seems to be decreasing. I'm constantly amazed at how much people just 15 years younger than I am don't know about fairly recent history. I would think that if I (I was born in 1967) know about the Lindbergh kidnapping, people born in the 1980s would know about the Patty Hearst kidnapping, but then I think about how much information people have been bombarded with, and how much of "the present" there is to keep track of anymore, I guess people have less and less time for history.

Couldn't agree more you all. I'm of the belief that every step forward is also an equal and opposite step back. With the internet, information abounds but what youngsters today don't understand is that information is not knowledge. With cable tv, many of the old films are shown but few youth are interested. Also, I've read that deep reading is nearly non-existent amongst the young, few have the patience to read a novel like Anna Karenina for example. Research has shown that concentrated reading of this type even develops new neural pathways that don't come from anything else. This makes one wonder what our brains will become?

Now like you, I don't want to seem or be curmudgeonly, I know many great things have come of late; my being able to instantly communicate with impressive people like you all for instance, but I do wonder what digital distractions are doing to people's ability to focus. It's like the entire culture is ADD.

A few years back I read a book called A Peace to end all Peace by David Fromkin. A very detailed tome that certainly upped my WWI knowledge.

Anyway, I know we're off topic and I apologize. I do like to discuss what modernity is doing to the human species though...

Probably should take that to a pub thread...


Greg

RivkahChaya
01-08-2013, 04:43 AM
I don't want to be one of those people grumbling about how no one knows how to bail hay anymore, or drive a mule team. Some things aren't so important anymore. [emp. added]I really do know that it's "bale hay." Sometimes my keyboard drops a letter (a bug not entirely worked out of wireless technology), then I pick the wrong autocorrect suggestion, because I'm just not paying enough attention.

sdreid
02-06-2013, 11:45 AM
Two more unsolved "elderly" single business women murders from the era were Annie Nichol, 67, and Eleanor Hammerton, 80, both, in different cities, were killed in 1945.

RivkahChaya
02-08-2013, 09:24 PM
Also, I've read that deep reading is nearly non-existent amongst the young, few have the patience to read a novel like Anna Karenina for example. Research has shown that concentrated reading of this type even develops new neural pathways that don't come from anything else. This makes one wonder what our brains will become?There's a new US film version of Anna Karenina, which I haven't seen, but which is being touted in the trailers and ads as a "great love story." The hell? Must be a different Anna Karenina. Honestly, if I had to write ad copy for Anna Karenina, it would probably be "Some people should have low self-esteem."

sdreid
02-17-2013, 01:23 PM
Two more unsolved "elderly" single business women murders from the era were Annie Nichol, 67, and Eleanor Hammerton, 80, both, in different cities, were killed in 1945.

I believe that Nichol was killed in Leeds while Hammerton was slain in Sheffield.

sdreid
03-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Both were shop owners as I recall.

sdreid
04-12-2013, 11:17 AM
There's a new US film version of Anna Karenina, which I haven't seen, but which is being touted in the trailers and ads as a "great love story." The hell? Must be a different Anna Karenina. Honestly, if I had to write ad copy for Anna Karenina, it would probably be "Some people should have low self-esteem."

I haven't seen either version.

sdreid
05-12-2013, 11:50 AM
The core of these lone businesswomen murders was in the late 1940s.

sdreid
06-12-2013, 12:04 PM
The Wallis slaying actually reminds me of the murder scene of Anna Massey in the Hitchcock film Frenzy. I wonder if he used it as a pattern.

The film Frenzy was said to be inspired by the Jack the Stripper Case but the Massey character is nothing like any of the victims in that series so maybe Hitch decided hybridize the tale a bit.

sdreid
06-21-2013, 01:26 PM
Ms. Massey played a business woman where the Stripper victims were all prostitutes on a variety of levels.

sdreid
07-17-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't recall the occupations of the other victims in Frenzy or if it was even stated.

sdreid
08-14-2013, 12:55 PM
Two more unsolved "elderly" single business women murders from the era were Annie Nichol, 67, and Eleanor Hammerton, 80, both, in different cities, were killed in 1945.

Of course, 67 isn't elderly since now days middle age doesn't end until you turn 70.:wink:

sdreid
09-08-2013, 06:01 AM
Julia was referred to as elderly by a lawyer in The Man From the Pru, which I think was taken from court records, and that was when they thought she was something like 48 years old.:anxious:

sdreid
09-26-2013, 04:49 AM
Of course, 67 isn't elderly since now days middle age doesn't end until you turn 70.:wink:

The end age of middle age keeps getting pushed later but the beginning still stays at 40.

Cogidubnus
09-26-2013, 01:01 PM
Gawd Stan, I'm 60 tomorrow and some days I feel distinctly elderly...but every old dog has his good days too! I suspect, (so long as one's not actually falling apart), it's all in the mind anyway...

All the best

Dave

sdreid
10-16-2013, 05:19 AM
Until reality hits, we baby boomers will continue to consider ourselves immortal.

sdreid
11-07-2013, 05:59 AM
When I was a kid, I thought my grandparents in their 50s were old but now I'm 67 and don't even feel like I've reached middle age yet. Julia Wallace does look quite old to me in her mortuary photos and she's only two years older than I am now.:shocked2:

sdreid
11-19-2013, 07:44 AM
Apparently Julia Wallace did suffer from urinary incontinence at age 69 and she seems a little young for that.

sdreid
12-16-2013, 07:15 AM
It appears, that is from a good source, that Parry's last alibi witness died in 1998.

sdreid
12-18-2013, 07:32 AM
That being Savona Brine who was 13 at the time.

sdreid
01-14-2014, 05:53 AM
Savona Brine was probably the last major witness to pass away then.

sdreid
02-08-2014, 06:45 AM
Perhaps the last witness of any sort.

sdreid
03-07-2014, 06:10 AM
I have never heard for sure if all the children who saw Close making his delivery to Julia are now deceased.

sdreid
04-06-2014, 05:33 AM
I have never heard for sure if all the children who saw Close making his delivery to Julia are now deceased.

I was informed on another site the last of those was James Wildman and he died in 2005.

sdreid
05-05-2014, 05:28 AM
He was apparently the last witness of record.

sdreid
06-05-2014, 05:07 AM
I'm pretty sure that some of the little kids who saw Wallace making his rounds on the day of the murder would still be living. They would only be in their 80s now.

sdreid
07-05-2014, 05:39 AM
I'd be surprised if any remember anything significant though.

GUT
07-05-2014, 04:42 PM
And how trustworthy would any memories be if they were kids at the time and now into their 80's.

sdreid
08-05-2014, 05:12 AM
Unlikely that they remember anything important even if they remember perfectly.

sdreid
09-04-2014, 05:05 AM
My mom was 6 when the murder occurred and she still remembers a lot from her childhood.