The posing of the body

[GordonH]

This issue was raised in the photo enhancement thread and I think it deserves a separate discussion because it may lead to some thoughts about the mental condition of the killer. This could then possibly be used to rule out specific suspects.

I realise this discussion could verge on "murder porn", but is a valid route of enquiry I think.

Some questions:

The head is raised up, but using a breast, not the obvious bolster - why not?

Is this a sexual pose or not?

If its not, is it symbolic of anything else like giving birth?
Probably not symbolic of anything at all.

[Daveshredder]

Hi, Every time i see the pictures I ask myself why has he tucked the left hand and part of the dress in to her abdomine, was he just clearing up or is it supposed to offend the viewer. Maybe he just stuck the hand on top and ity fell in ?

[perrymason]

Hi, Every time i see the pictures I ask myself why has he tucked the left hand and part of the dress in to her abdomine, was he just clearing up or is it supposed to offend the viewer. Maybe he just stuck the hand on top and ity fell in ?

Hi Dave, Gordon...

If I had to guess I would say that when he flipped her onto her back from her right side that left arm may have dangled over the bed.....but not at the elbow joint. So the forearm might have stuck out from the bed enough to aggravate him as he tried to place things about her and on her night table.

After he had finished.....whatever it was he thought he was doing, I think he may have just flipped it back up onto her, and it fell in place where it is seen in the photo. Now...why her head is tilted towards anyone entering or leaving the room...why he placed a breast and a uterus under her head, why he only takes flesh from her right leg to the knee.......all anyones guess.

Mine is that what "posing" we see is intentional misrepresentation of the killers real objectives, and an attempt to create an illusion of a killer who cuts organs out of dead women. I believe her killer simply wanted to kill her. To make her dead. And to have the evidence not direct suspicion his way. Having said that, I dont believe that the evidence with any other Canonical Group murder suggests that the Ripper's goal was simply murder.

He forgot though that the killer called Jack had left a more specific kind of murder trail and crime scene tableau,.....simply because his objectives were not the same as Marys killers were. Cutting any old organ out isnt Jacks pattern, and he always takes what he cuts free... in terms of organs. Marys killer didn't.

I believe the evidence suggests Marys killer was angry with her.....I dont see another alleged Ripper victim that leaves that same impression with me....unless its the wounds on Kates face. Spite, or anger. Passionate emotions.

To me if anything, up until Kates facial cuts, there is no indication that he was anything but focused and cold hearted. Dispassionate if anything.

My best regards and welcome aboard Gents.

[Daveshredder]

My line of thought has been that, jack was getting more comfortable with his kills. Allowing him to take it one step farther each time. Which I am lead to believe is now accepted as a common trait of serial offenders. Also you have to take into account the setting. This is jacks first indoor kill, he now has total privacy. He may well have pined to dissect and fidget with the innerds of his past kills, but this option was'nt available to him on the street.

[Daveshredder]

But I do agree with what you say, it is kind of "Over Kill" which sort of makes me feel it may have been more than one culprit. But thats just a feeling and you can never base anything incriminating on feeling. lol

[kensei]

Having just been on the threads about Mary's gravesite where people are saying nice things about her, this thread kind of makes one feel like you need a shower after delving into it. With that disclaimer, there are some dark thoughts I've had while studying the details of how Mary's body was found.

I could see the spread legs being just a product of the killer kneeling between them to do his work. But the left hand being thrust into the disemboweled abdomen- I don't think that could have happened accidentally. It was done as deliberately as the placing of all the body parts in the places where they were found. And I kind of get a mental image of Jack, reveling in the privacy of his first indoor kill, lapsing into a sort of insane sense of humor once the butchery was underway. He knew the body would be found in the morning by someone, and for the first time he had time to think about that, how he wanted it to look. This might be a stretch, but I almost see him lapsing into a Joker-type persona (i.e. Heath Ledger in "The Dark Knight"), going "Ooh, I'll put this here and that over there, this is going to be great!" You know, just because of throwing himself headlong into the sheer outrageousness of what he was doing in that place and time. I've also long thought that with the fire burning for warmth he was at least partially disrobed, at least shirtless, both for sexual gratification and to keep his clothes free from blood. And the creepiest thought of all that I get, the one that really makes me need a shower after I say it, is partially fed by one of the illustrations I remember seeing in the "From Hell" graphic novel. The severed breast under the head. I see him holding it in his hand, and thinking what a great joke it would be to make a pillow out of it.

It just goes to show- when we really contemplate the man and try to put ourselves into his head, it is not always a place we find we want to be.

[Sam Flynn]

On a point of detail - I'm sure that the idea that Kelly's hand was "thrust into" her abdomen comes from popular literature on the subject, and is in any case a misinterpretation. Her elbow is flat on the mattress, and her forearm and hand rest across the bottom of her rib-cage. One can see from the "reverse-angle" photograph that Kelly's hand barely peeps over the top of her left flank. If anything, it overhangs the abdominal cavity, and hardly encroaches into it at all.

[Christine]

The whole thing was certainly done for sexual gratification, so it's pretty much impossible to sort out his moving her legs from his disemboweling her, or to separate his removing her breast from his raising her face, or to separate his need to degrade and dehumanize her from his need to throw her insides about.

[Daveshredder]

I remember seeing in the "From Hell" graphic novel.

Funny, I just got my copy in the mail yesterday and that was the first bit I glanced at !

[perrymason]

On a point of detail - I'm sure that the idea that Kelly's hand was "thrust into" her abdomen comes from popular literature on the subject, and is in any case a misinterpretation. Her elbow is flat on the mattress, and her forearm and hand rest across the bottom of her rib-cage. One can see from the "reverse-angle" photograph that Kelly's hand barely peeps over the top of her left flank. If anything, it overhangs the abdominal cavity, and hardly encroaches into it at all.

I agree with the above Sam, I think her arm was flipped back over an empty cavity. There are other issues Im not willing to dismiss as unintentional or accidental...and they do suggest that he was creating a scene on the bed, rather than just engaging in slash and cut.

All the best Gareth.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

1. No doubt about it, that Saucy Jacky had some sort of a sexual frustration. What kind of?! They should have caught the bugger to get a proper answer to that.

2. The right arm is probably thrown aside in the beginning of the mutilation.

3. The left arm has some cuts, possibly caused by self-defence. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility of "off-cuts"...

3. The slashed face turned to the window might very well be meant to shock the viewer!

All right, too many presumptions and maybes!

All the best
Jukka

[The Good Michael]

Jukka,

I'd have to agree about the off-cuts, as you call them. For all we know, that was part of his display, if display it was, rather than the product of fighting off an attacker.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

I agree with the above Sam, I think her arm was flipped back over an empty cavity. There are other issues Im not willing to dismiss as unintentional or accidental...and they do suggest that he was creating a scene on the bed, rather than just engaging in slash and cut.

He seems to have been dropping organs onto the mattress as he went along, Mike, and most of them end up in perfectly logical, practical positions - the others more randomly placed, but never very far away. This would be no different than one would expect if the killer were driven by the simple need to "get stuff out of the way" in order to continue digging out more organs.

So, spleen by the left side, one breast seemingly flung to the foot of the bed, intestines heaved over the right side of the body, liver translated horizontally a few feet to rest between the legs. If the killer really wanted to "convey" something, then he had the 100 square feet or more of Kelly's room in which to express himself, yet he only displaced the organs a few feet from where they would normally have been.

The disposition of the body itself seems perfectly "normal" - it's not as if the killer was going to close up Kelly's legs after having carved a saddle of flesh from thigh to thigh and exposed one of the femurs. In fact, it's almost the case that it would be more significant if he had closed the legs up again.

The exception seems to be the odd assemblage of organs under the head, but there were (literally) only a handful of those. The thing is, we don't know precisely what Dr Bond meant by "under the head", so whether the organs were used as a "prop" or were simply stuffed out of the way we really don't know. Whatever the reason, it seems not to have been one of displaying the organs in question, for they would have been occluded by Kelly's head.

[Daveshredder]

I have to say I always wonder why he didnt use the whole room to shock.
Maybe the organs under the head are a throw, gary ridgeway, who killed 49 women near green river, attempted to throw the police with one of his victoms by placing food around and on her corps ?

[Sam Flynn]

I have to say I always wonder why he didnt use the whole room to shock.

I sense that it's because he was far more interested in the practicalities of evisceration than in anything particularly symbolic, Dave. In the "practicality" department, he certainly had a big enough job on his hands when he mutilated Kelly, without getting too hung up on fripperies.