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sdreid
02-18-2009, 03:10 AM
It seems, every locale has its own set of interesting unsolved murders and that most of them are not that well known outside the area. I'd be interested to hear about yours. Here are my top ten murder mysteries in chronological order within 60 or so miles from me. I'll give a more detailed account on each in subsequent posts.

1-Johnny Cantwell in 1881 near North Pekin
2-George McNear in 1947 at Peoria
3-Bernie Shelton during 1948 in Peoria
4-The evanishment and assumed murder of Fay Rawley in 1953 near Summum
5-Janice May in 1955 at Canton
6-Susan Hendricks and her three children during 1983 in Bloomington
7-The Trick-or-Treat murders in 1984 at Decatur
8-The disappearance and probable slaying of Veronica Blumhorst in 1990 at Mendota
9-Tammy Zywicki during 1992 near Utica
10-Dalton Mesarchik in 2003 at Streator

Mayerling
02-18-2009, 09:15 AM
HI Stan,

Pretty interesting, and remarkably more difficult than I imagined.

1) Giuliana Sands (December 1799) in lower Manhattan (the "Manhattan Well Murder", or the Sands - Weeks Affair.

2) Disappearance of New York State Chancellor John Lansing, when he went to the Albany mail boat to post a letter in December 1829 - Accident or murder?

3) Helen Jewett (1836) - or the Thomas Street Murder in Manhattan.

4) Mary C. Rogers (1841) - the "beautiful "seegar" girl" case that influenced Edgar Allan Poe.

5) The Benjamin Nathan Murder (1870) - of the "23rd Street Murder" in Manhattan.

6) Carrie Brown (1891) - in a dive/hotel in lower Manhattan.

7) Dolly Reynolds (1897) - in a hotel in Manhattan in the West 20s. Questions remain if she was killed for trying to blackmail a lover - possibly a dentist who resided in Staten Island.

8) Disappearance of Dorothy Arnold (1910) - last seen on Fifth Avenue in the East 20s.

9) Joseph Elwell in the West 60s of Manhattan (1920). Shot in his brownstone mansion.

10) Disappearance of Justice Joseph Crater (1930) - last seen on Broadway in a taxicab.

11) Odd death of Starr Faithfull (1931) - body found in Long Beach, in Nassau County.

12) Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr. (1932) - Hopewell, New Jersey, but planned in the Bronx (at least I think so). Despite an official solution still debated.

13) Sergei Rubinstein (in his mansion on Park Avenue) (1955). Probably the only murder on this list where everyone wants to give the killers medals.

14) Alice Crimmins (1964) - bodies of her two children found near the New York World's Fair Grounds in Flushing Meadows (the killings were done nearly four miles from my then residence in Flushing, in Queens).

15) Etan Patz (1979) - Greenwich Village in Manhattan. Although most people feel poor Etan was kidnapped, ravished and slain - and a likely suspect has been found - we don't know.

There are others - and note most of these were in Manhattan. There are others not in the main borough of New York City.

Jeff

sdreid
02-18-2009, 03:29 PM
Thanks Jeff. I have heard of most of those but I bet few out of my area know anything about the ones on my list. Being from a large population area makes a difference, I think. You certainly have some interesting and very big unsolved cases there.

Mayerling
02-18-2009, 10:06 PM
Hi Stan,

The problem with living in the New York Metropolitan area is that too many of the unsolved (and solved) cases are well known - actually Chicago has a similar problem. I might have added two or three bombings:

1920 - Wall Street - over forty killed - the perpetrator was never discovered.
the late 1970s - Faunces Tavern in Manhattan, and LaGuardia Airport, both killing about a dozen each. The F.A.L.N. of Puerto Rican Nationalists were blamed but nothing was ever proven nor anyone brought to trial.

I'll try to find some more obscure ones.

Jeff

Steve S
02-18-2009, 11:03 PM
And Leicestershire has the Green Bicycle case.........
Steve

Observer
02-18-2009, 11:22 PM
this seems like a job for Bicycle Repairman

4656

all the best
observer

sdreid
02-19-2009, 12:13 AM
Steve-Yes, that is a world famous one.

Jeff-Certainly, I understand that issue. I purposely confined "my area" to within about a 90 minute drive expressly not to get too close to Chicago.

sdreid
02-19-2009, 01:50 AM
1 -- On August 21 of 1881, thirteen-year-old Johnny Cantwell was run over by a train near North Pekin, IL. He lived for a brief period and told the locomotive crew that he'd been accosted by a man while walking along the tracks. The man overpowered him and tied him to the rails saying he'd release him when he told the assailant where he could get some money. When the train approached, the men in the engine saw a man bending over the boy but they were unable to stop in time as the attacker ran into some woods. He was never captured or identified.

2 -- As he approached his home in Peoria, IL on March 10 of 1947, George McNear, the president of the Toledo, Peoria and Western Railroad, is cut down by a shot gun. He was walking back from attending a Bradley University basketball game. His company was embroiled in a bitter multi-year strike in which both sides had resorted to goon tactics. A couple of weeks previous, two strikers had been killed in a picket line incident. It was one of the few strikes that occurred during World War Two with the main issue involving the continued employment of steam locomotive firemen even though they were no longer needed on the new diesels. The murder was never solved.

Mayerling
02-19-2009, 02:44 AM
Hi Stan,

I can add these odd ones:

1826 - William Morgan is abducted by several men after being freed from an upstate jail. He had just written a controvertial book about the Masons that was revealing their secrets (supposedly). Pushed into a buckboard while screaming for help, he was driven away and never seen (officially) again.
A body found in a nearby river a few months later was possibly his.

January 2, 1931 to May 1933 - the 59-61 Allen Street (Manhattan) murders of first Herman Moensch (in 1931) and then of Edward Ridley and Harry Weinstein in 1933. All were killed in an old department store building that was on the lower East Side, apparently by someone with a grudge. Ridley (an elderly millionaire) employed Moensch and Weinstein as secretary and assistant, and as he was a tenement landlord it may have been a revenge set of killings of sorts. Nobody ever figured it out officially.

Jeff

sdreid
02-19-2009, 02:54 AM
Hi Jeff,

I don't recall those. That last example would be a serial killing of sorts.

sdreid
02-19-2009, 04:08 AM
3 -- On July 26 of 1948, a sniper gunned down Bernie Shelton, a local gangster, as he exited his tavern in Peoria, IL. He died within the hour. Police found the sniper's nest on a nearby wooded hillside. The case remains officially unsolved. Decades later, a convict related that another hoodlum named Charles "Blackie" Harris had claimed in prison that he'd been behind the slaying. Harris' account lacked details however.

4 -- Fay Rawley vanished from his home near Summum, IL on November 8 of 1953. Rawley was a well-to- do farmer and politician. He was last seen earlier that evening when he left his girlfriend's home in Macomb. There were signs of a struggle in his house. Neither he nor his new Cadillac were ever seen again. A strip mine was being filled in across the road from Rawley's home and the theory was that he was murdered and buried in his car there some 300 feet down. A local sheriff spent years drilling into the mine but never found Rawley or the Cadillac. The case is a total mystery.

Mayerling
02-19-2009, 04:09 AM
Hi Stan,

I forgot to say that 1881 case was unique - I actually can't recall many cases where a train was used like that as a murder weapon.

I take it the 1947 case stretched back to some strike from the early 1940s - during World War II which ended in 1945.

By the way, I would have included the small war in "Bloody Williamson" in the 1920s-1930s. It has been written up a great deal, but more attention is paid to the Chicago centered Capone activities than that.

Two other cases:

1927 - Eugene Cederholm disappearance (and murder) in Long Island City. Her boarder Edward Lawrence Hall went to prison for forging her checks, and died in Sing Sing. Remains of Ms Cederholm were found in 1953 in the back yard.

December 20, 1933 - Disappearance of Agnes Tufverson (an attorney) in Manhattan after marrying Yugoslavian officer Captain Ivan Powderjay. He certainly boarded the Atlantic ocean liner with his luggage (including a large trunk) but nobody saw her again. It is believed he cut up her body and dumped it into the ocean outside the 10 mile limit (piece by piece). Powderjay was eventually found to be a bigamist, and sentenced to Sing Sing for that - but no trace of Tufverson ever turned up.

Jeff

sdreid
02-19-2009, 04:20 AM
Hi Jeff,

The strike was still in effect and had been ongoing for over 5 years. There was a point when the Army was bought in to run the trains for national security reasons. I believe it ended shortly after the murder when a new president took over.

Shelton was a part of the Williamson wars with its tanks and air raids but that county is pretty far south of me.

Doing a good job of hiding a body helps as your examples illustrate.

sdreid
02-20-2009, 03:10 AM
5 -- On November 26 of 1955, 8-year-old Janice May vanished in Canton, IL. She was soon found beside a set of railroad tracks. The little girl, who died a short time later, had been raped and beaten with a piece of broken concrete. A cab driver, named Lloyd Miller, inexplicably left town right after the crime and was eventually arrested. Police also found a pair of red stained undershorts, reportedly belonging to Miller. He was convicted of the slaying and sentenced to the electric chair. After eleven years on death row and ten execution dates, the "bloody" boxers were finally tested and the stains were found to be paint. He was released and had no further trouble with the law but his innocence is still the subject of debate. Legally, the murder is still a mystery.

6 -- Susan Hendricks, her children, Rebekah, 9, Grace, 7, and Benjamin, 5, were found hacked to death in their Bloomington, IL home on November 9 of 1983. The weapons were an ax and a butcher knife. Her husband, David claimed to be away on a business trip at the time of the murders but this couldn't be proven. He was also shown to be having an affair at the time. It was charged that he'd killed his family because they were in the way of his extramarital activities. Mr. Hendricks was convicted but later won a new trial which ended in an acquittal. Not everyone agreed with that verdict but the case is officially unsolved.

sdreid
02-20-2009, 08:17 PM
Stand by for update!

sdreid
02-20-2009, 08:42 PM
7 -- On October 31 of 1984 in Decatur IL, Sherry Gordon, 12, and, her cousin, Theresa Hall, 9, vanished while out trick-or-treating with Theresa's 7-year-old sister. They were later found strangled and sexually assaulted in an abandoned building. The younger girl was found hiding but was too traumatized to identify the attacker, thus leaving the case unsolved. UPDATE: Just last week, Decatur police announced that DNA from the crime scene had been matched to a convict named Melvin Johnson who'd died in 2003. It looks like we can probably consider this one solved.

8 -- Veronica Blumhorst, 20, left her job at a Mendota, IL grocery store in the early morning hours of September 20, 1990 and was never seen again. She had arrived at the home she shared with her parents because her car was in the garage. Acquaintances were questioned but the assumed murder is a mystery.

sdreid
02-21-2009, 01:40 AM
9 -- Twenty-one-year-old Tammy Zywicki left New Jersey on a trip to her college in Iowa. Along the way, she dropped her brother off at his college in Chicago. On August 23 of 1992 near Utica, IL, her derelict car was found. Passers-by later told of seeing Tammy talking to a truck driver with the hood of her car up. Nine days later, her stabbed body was found in Missouri. The truck had a rather unique paint scheme but it was never traced. With the close proximity to Veronica Blumhorst, some thought a serial killer might be about. The so-called Truck-Stop Killer was mentioned but the case is still unresolved.

10 - On March 26 of 2003, 7-year-old Dalton Mesarchik was taken while waiting for a church bus in Streator, IL. The next day, his beaten remains were found in a river south of town. It was determined that the murder weapon was a bench-top sledgehammer that came from K-Mart. His killing is still a mystery.

OK, that's my list at present.

sdreid
03-07-2009, 03:50 AM
Since I think we can consider the Trick-or-Treat murders just solved, I'll add a replacement.

X -- In Normal, Illinois on August 28 of 1993, Jennifer Lockmiller was found murdered in her apartment. The co-ed had been strangled with an electrical cord and stabbed with scissors. Alan Beaman, her former boyfriend, was convicted of the slaying. After 13 years in prison, the guilty verdict was thrown out by a higher court and the State quickly dropped the charges. The case remains unsolved. Interestingly, one of Beaman's biggest champions was Jennifer's mother who always thought he was innocent. Some believe that the original verdict was due to the defendant's perceived cocky attitude.

Mayerling
04-05-2009, 07:00 PM
1928 - Arnold "the Big Bankroll" Rothstein (creator of the style of modern organized crime, alleged mastermind of the 1919 fix in the Black Sox Scandal, and the original for "Nathan Detroit" in GUYS AND DOLLS) killed at the Park Sheridan Hotel after a night of card playing. Was he shot by a fellow gambler, a racketeer, who? He never said although he lived for several hours afterwards. [When badgered by the police, reputedly he angrily spat out, "Me mother!!"]

1941 - The Blue Moon Hotel in Coney Island, Brooklyn. A day before he was
to give testimony against the leaders of "Murder Inc.", Abe "Kid Twist" Reles fell out of a twelve story window from the hotel. The police guard said he tried to flee (and there were a few pitiful tied up bed sheets from the window. Most people have assumed differently. Reles, who had been singing against his old associates to save his carcass, is recalled as "the canary who could sing but could not fly!"


1944 - the Wayne Lornegan Case. Wayne Lornegan, a Canadian who married an heiress, was accused of her murder. There was a big trial that resulted in his conviction, but doubts caused his sentence to be reduced to life imprisonment. He was released in the 1960s and died in the 1980s protesting he did not kill his wife. Many still believe him.


1957 - The Park Sheridan is a fine hotel, but deadly to organized crime figures. Albert Anastasia went into the hotel for his hair cut. While his face was covered by a steaming towel, a bunch of four men came in whom the staff realized did not want shaves. The staff (wisely) turned their backs, while the gentleman pumped Mr. Anastasia full of bullets. Then the four men left. Remarkably, none of the staff could describe these men very clearly.
They remained wise and healthy. The only possible solution that came out was when a few years later a rumor spread that Joey Gallo (talking to some cronies after the events) said, "Just call me and the boys the "barbertshop quartet"."

Jeff

sdreid
04-06-2009, 03:47 PM
Thanks Jeff. I even remember when that last one when was in the news and discussing it at school the next day.

sdreid
05-15-2009, 02:53 AM
One update on Beaman - Even though the verdict has been thrown out, the charges dropped and Beaman released, the State is apparently balking at returning his bond money. If anything, they owe him that and a lot more.

sdreid
08-16-2009, 02:16 AM
4 -- Fay Rawley vanished from his home near Summum, IL on November 8 of 1953. Rawley was a well-to-do farmer and politician. He was last seen earlier that evening when he left his girlfriend's home in Macomb. There were signs of a struggle in his house. Neither he nor his new Cadillac were ever seen again. A strip mine was being filled in across the road from Rawley's home and the theory was that he was murdered and buried in his car there some 300 feet down. A local sheriff spent years drilling into the mine but never found Rawley or the Cadillac. The case is a total mystery.

Additionally, nine years later, two years after Rawley was legally declared dead, his son was killed in an automobile accident. Investigators found that the car's brakes seemed to have been tampered with. Was there some sort of vendetta against the family?

sdreid
09-16-2009, 04:09 PM
7 -- On October 31 of 1984 in Decatur IL, Sherry Gordon, 12, and, her cousin, Theresa Hall, 9, vanished while out trick-or-treating with Theresa's 7-year-old sister. They were later found strangled and sexually assaulted in an abandoned building. The younger girl was found hiding but was too traumatized to identify the attacker, thus leaving the case unsolved. UPDATE: Just last week, Decatur police announced that DNA from the crime scene had been matched to a convict named Melvin Johnson who'd died in 2003. It looks like we can probably consider this one solved.

Mr. Johnson has now been tied to murders in 1985 and 1988 so I guess we had a serial killer here and didn't know it. In the same regard, other slayings are being looked at.

sdreid
11-25-2009, 06:53 AM
Speaking of possible budding serial killers, Richie Neavear, 18, was found stabbed to death in a patch of tall weeds south of Pekin, IL on July 14, 1995.

On September seventh of 2009, 27-year-old Randy Englebrect was found buried on his property in Mason County, also south of the city. Police are not releasing the cause of death but, since people don't bury themselves, we can safely assume that it was a homicide. There are several men who are suspects in both murders.

sdreid
12-03-2009, 08:38 PM
2 -- As he approached his home in Peoria, IL on March 10 of 1947, George McNear, the president of the Toledo, Peoria and Western Railroad, is cut down by a shot gun. He was walking back from attending a Bradley University basketball game. His company was embroiled in a bitter multi-year strike in which both sides had resorted to goon tactics. A couple of weeks previous, two strikers had been killed in a picket line incident. It was one of the few strikes that occurred during World War Two with the main issue involving the continued employment of steam locomotive firemen even though they were no longer needed on the new diesels. The murder was never solved.

McNear's personal rail-car is being moved to a railroad museum this month. Until now, it was part of a local restaurant that is currently being torn down.

Rick Mattix
12-04-2009, 01:02 AM
3 -- On July 26 of 1948, a sniper gunned down Bernie Shelton, a local gangster, as he exited his tavern in Peoria, IL. He died within the hour. Police found the sniper's nest on a nearby wooded hillside. The case remains officially unsolved. Decades later, a convict related that another hoodlum named Charles "Blackie" Harris had claimed in prison that he'd been behind the slaying. Harris' account lacked details however.

4 -- Fay Rawley vanished from his home near Summum, IL on November 8 of 1953. Rawley was a well-to- do farmer and politician. He was last seen earlier that evening when he left his girlfriend's home in Macomb. There were signs of a struggle in his house. Neither he nor his new Cadillac were ever seen again. A strip mine was being filled in across the road from Rawley's home and the theory was that he was murdered and buried in his car there some 300 feet down. A local sheriff spent years drilling into the mine but never found Rawley or the Cadillac. The case is a total mystery.

Heard lately from Taylor Pensoneau, who wrote the good book Brothers Notorious a few years back about the Shelton brothers. He's about to publish a biography of Charlie Harris that might shed some more light here.

Rick Mattix
12-04-2009, 01:13 AM
9 -- Twenty-one-year-old Tammy Zywicki left New Jersey on a trip to her college in Iowa. Along the way, she dropped her brother off at his college in Chicago. On August 23 of 1992 near Utica, IL, her derelict car was found. Passers-by later told of seeing Tammy talking to a truck driver with the hood of her car up. Nine days later, her stabbed body was found in Missouri. The truck had a rather unique paint scheme but it was never traced. With the close proximity to Veronica Blumhorst, some thought a serial killer might be about. The so-called Truck-Stop Killer was mentioned but the case is still unresolved.

10 - On March 26 of 2003, 7-year-old Dalton Mesarchik was taken while waiting for a church bus in Streator, IL. The next day, his beaten remains were found in a river south of town. It was determined that the murder weapon was a bench-top sledgehammer that came from K-Mart. His killing is still a mystery.

OK, that's my list at present.

I remember the Zywicki case. Lovely blonde girl in glasses. I think they had posters up with her photo at every rest stop along I-80 almost as soon as her car was discovered. Think some of them still hung there for a few months after the body was found. As I recall Tammy's body was dumped somewhere near Joplin, MO. Tragic story.

sdreid
12-04-2009, 02:08 AM
Yes Rick, it was sad. As I recall, the car was found to have fuel and with no mechanical problems so I suspect that the trucker motioned her to pull over with a claim that the car was smoking or leaking or something of the sort then attacked her when she was out of the vehicle. This murder became a kind of cause celebre as to the need for a cell phone.

Illinois killers seem to be up to making world changes like the Tylenol Poisoner and all the safety seals that we have to mess with now.

sdreid
12-04-2009, 02:38 AM
One update on Beaman - Even though the verdict has been thrown out, the charges dropped and Beaman released, the State is apparently balking at returning his bond money. If anything, they owe him that and a lot more.


Beaman has applied to be declared innocent which would clear the way for him to file a claim for state compensation. That will be the day.

sdreid
12-25-2009, 03:50 AM
On November 18 of 1979, a pair of youths hunting near Granville, IL found a woman's body under a pile of leaves and a wooden pallet. She was naked and had been beaten to death. The woman was buried in an unmarked grave but was identified, several years later, as Denise Laack who was 24-years-old and from Appleton, WI, some 300 miles drive away. Her murder is still unsolved. Authorities have not found that Denise had any ties with the area in which her remains were discovered.

sdreid
01-13-2010, 02:07 AM
5 -- On November 26 of 1955, 8-year-old Janice May vanished in Canton, IL. She was soon found beside a set of railroad tracks. The little girl, who died a short time later, had been raped and beaten with a piece of broken concrete. A cab driver, named Lloyd Miller, inexplicably left town right after the crime and was eventually arrested. Police also found a pair of red stained undershorts, reportedly belonging to Miller. He was convicted of the slaying and sentenced to the electric chair. After eleven years on death row and ten execution dates, the "bloody" boxers were finally tested and the stains were found to be paint. He was released and had no further trouble with the law but his innocence is still the subject of debate. Legally, the murder is still a mystery.

There have been at least two books written about this case, Tenth Stay at Midnight and Scapegoat Justice.

sdreid
02-09-2010, 06:03 AM
6 -- Susan Hendricks, her children, Rebekah, 9, Grace, 7, and Benjamin, 5, were found hacked to death in their Bloomington, IL home on November 9 of 1983. The weapons were an ax and a butcher knife. Her husband, David claimed to be away on a business trip at the time of the murders but this couldn't be proven. He was also shown to be having an affair at the time. It was charged that he'd killed his family because they were in the way of his extramarital activities. Mr. Hendricks was convicted but later won a new trial which ended in an acquittal. Not everyone agreed with that verdict but the case is officially unsolved.

The 1992 book Reasonable Doubt is about this case.

sdreid
02-12-2010, 05:56 PM
2 -- As he approached his home in Peoria, IL on March 10 of 1947, George McNear, the president of the Toledo, Peoria and Western Railroad, is cut down by a shot gun. He was walking back from attending a Bradley University basketball game. His company was embroiled in a bitter multi-year strike in which both sides had resorted to goon tactics. A couple of weeks previous, two strikers had been killed in a picket line incident. It was one of the few strikes that occurred during World War Two with the main issue involving the continued employment of steam locomotive firemen even though they were no longer needed on the new diesels. The murder was never solved.

Mr. McNear's private railroad car is being moved to the Wheels O' Time Museum today in what will likely be its final journey.

belinda
02-12-2010, 07:01 PM
Who really did this?


http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/winchester-murder-trial-fair-or-not/300449.aspx

sdreid
03-01-2010, 01:23 AM
Thanks Belinda. What was the inquiry finding in that case?

sdreid
03-13-2010, 06:30 AM
Heard lately from Taylor Pensoneau, who wrote the good book Brothers Notorious a few years back about the Shelton brothers. He's about to publish a biography of Charlie Harris that might shed some more light here.

I can't list them all but there are several books about the Shelton Brothers.

sdreid
03-28-2010, 06:12 AM
Heard lately from Taylor Pensoneau, who wrote the good book Brothers Notorious a few years back about the Shelton brothers. He's about to publish a biography of Charlie Harris that might shed some more light here.

I see that Pensoneau is now on a book tour with his Harris work.

sdreid
06-16-2010, 05:32 AM
I see that Pensoneau is now on a book tour with his Harris work.

His book about Charles "Blackie" Harris is entitled Dapper & Deadly.

sdreid
07-12-2010, 12:06 AM
1941 - The Blue Moon Hotel in Coney Island, Brooklyn. A day before he was
to give testimony against the leaders of "Murder Inc.", Abe "Kid Twist" Reles fell out of a twelve story window from the hotel. The police guard said he tried to flee (and there were a few pitiful tied up bed sheets from the window. Most people have assumed differently. Reles, who had been singing against his old associates to save his carcass, is recalled as "the canary who could sing but could not fly!"

I see where gangster son Bobby Spillane just "fell" from a sixth floor window yesterday.

Rubyretro
07-12-2010, 01:02 PM
I'm from Brighton, England, originally; we seem to have a tradition of 'Trunk Murders' there en.wikipedia.org/.../Brighton_trunk_murders

sdreid
07-12-2010, 02:51 PM
Thanks Ruby-Yes and that group is even globally known unlike the ones in my area.

ChainzCooper
07-14-2010, 02:00 AM
We have a regional murder mystery where I'm from in NC. Michael Peterson who allegedly pushed his wife down a flight of stairs. I say allegedly because we all know the owl really did it ;)
Jordan

sdreid
08-04-2010, 01:54 AM
Hi Jordan:

Wasn't he suspected of killing another woman the same way several years earlier?

ChainzCooper
08-04-2010, 02:49 AM
Hi Jordan:

Wasn't he suspected of killing another woman the same way several years earlier?

Hey, Thanks for your reply I appreciate it.
Yes, there was a period where Peterson lived in Germany (in the 1980's I believe) and a woman he knew was found dead in the same way that his wife was in 2001. This evidence was introduced at his trial. I live in Durham and my parents are friends with the man who was lead prosecutor in this case former District Attorney (now Judge) Jim Hardin. Hes a really nice guy. The most bizarre part of this whole thing is that his neighbor actually believes a wild owl killed her. And no I'm not kidding.
Jordan

sdreid
08-18-2010, 03:53 AM
Thanks Jordan. Yes, I believe his trial was featured on Court TV.

ChainzCooper
08-18-2010, 06:17 AM
You're welcome. Nice to chat with you about it
Jordan

sdreid
08-31-2010, 05:08 AM
I don't know how the guy got away with the first one. There was a lot of blood as I recall. I fell down a full flight of stairs when I was a kid and there wasn't even a scratch on me.

sdreid
09-16-2010, 05:08 AM
There was an exceptional amount of blood in both cases. I don't see how any reasonable person could think that it came from a short fall down household stairs.

ChainzCooper
09-20-2010, 05:13 AM
I guess he told a pretty convincing story to the police. But then again I saw a recent interview of his with Aphrodite Jones and it takes about 5 seconds to realize the guy is a complete nutjob.
Jordan

sdreid
10-08-2010, 05:01 AM
I recently came across a relatively important unsolved murder from my area that I didn't recall. In Springfield, IL, Mary Jane Hanselman, 16, was last seen alive at the restaurant where she worked while not attending her sophomore classes in high school. On April 27 of 1958, her remains were found near the Illinois State Fairgrounds. She had been bound with her own stockings, raped and then brutally murdered. Several men were questioned, including a coworker, but no charges were ever filed. A 2009 novel, entitled Absence of Goodness, was loosely based on the case.

sdreid
10-29-2010, 05:01 AM
I recently came across a relatively important unsolved murder from my area that I didn't recall. In Springfield, IL, Mary Jane Hanselman, 16, was last seen alive at the restaurant where she worked while not attending her sophomore classes in high school. On April 27 of 1958, her remains were found near the Illinois State Fairgrounds. She had been bound with her own stockings, raped and then brutally murdered. Several men were questioned, including a coworker, but no charges were ever filed. A 2009 novel, entitled Absence of Goodness, was loosely based on the case.

Miss Hanselman worked at Georgian Restaurant which was a 24 hour establishment along Route 66 so that makes the suspect pool large indeed. The eatery was only recently demolished. Route 66 ran from Chicago to Los Angeles.

sdreid
11-17-2010, 06:08 AM
There are some cases around here that are technically unsolved but police have effectively closed the books because they are pretty sure that the perpetrator is neutralized.

One case would be the ax murders of three members of the Dewson family in Monmouth, IL during 1911. Serial cluster murderer Henry Lee Moore was believed responsible but he got a life term for killing his mother and maternal grandmother in Missouri.

Another example would be the 1976 murder of Mark Helmig, 9, in Pekin, IL and the 1978 slaying of Normal, IL resident Marty Lancaster, 14. Both were thought to be victims of serial child killer William "Freight Train" Guatney. He was arrested for murdering another boy in a different state but found unfit to stand trial and sent to a mental facility. He is now deceased.

There is a book about Guatney entitled Slayer of Innocence by Jim Conover.

sdreid
12-07-2010, 01:38 PM
Another big presumed murder mystery in this area is the disappearance and suspected murder of Peoria lawyer Walter Donley on June 1 of 1943. He was last seen walking down Main Street that day. Neither he nor his remains were ever found. He was involved in a St. Louis robbery and possible money laundering case at the time but no connection to that was ever proven. His appointment book did not produce any serious leads either.

sdreid
01-03-2011, 01:30 PM
The FBI was even brought in on the Donley Case. His car was found parked in a residential area to which he had no known connection. The keys were in the vehicle. There was no blood or any sign of a struggle inside the automobile.

sdreid
01-22-2011, 02:37 PM
Speaking of possible budding serial killers, Richie Neavear, 18, was found stabbed to death in a patch of tall weeds south of Pekin, IL on July 14, 1995.

On September seventh of 2009, 27-year-old Randy Englebrect was found buried on his property in Mason County, also south of the city. Police are not releasing the cause of death but, since people don't bury themselves, we can safely assume that it was a homicide. There are several men who are suspects in both murders.

Correction: The latter victim's name was actually Dustin Englebrecht - sorry.

sdreid
01-22-2011, 02:44 PM
One case would be the ax murders of three members of the Dewson family in Monmouth, IL during 1911. Serial cluster murderer Henry Lee Moore was believed responsible but he got a life term for killing his mother and maternal grandmother in Missouri.

Monmouth is also the birthplace of Wyatt Earp and the hometown of Richard Speck, where he may have committed his first murder. Earp was also arrested for running whores in Peoria during 1872.

The Grave Maurice
01-23-2011, 12:19 AM
Earp was also arrested for running whores in Peoria during 1872.
I assume that he was not convicted.

sdreid
01-23-2011, 12:44 AM
I think he paid a fine which may have been more like a bribe, I'm not sure. It was a minor offense at the time I believe.

sdreid
01-23-2011, 12:55 PM
Correction: The latter victim's name was actually Dustin Englebrecht - sorry.

An arrest has recently been made in this case and the man is also a person of interest in the Neavear slaying, as I understand, so this guy is either innocent, guilty of one or the other murder or a budding serial killer.

Mayerling
01-25-2011, 07:23 PM
Monmouth is also the birthplace of Wyatt Earp and the hometown of Richard Speck, where he may have committed his first murder. Earp was also arrested for running whores in Peoria during 1872.

If Earp, who in his time also ran gambling casinos, was into running whore houses in Monmouth maybe he could have called it , the "Okay!! Corrall".

Jeff

sdreid
01-26-2011, 01:25 PM
If Earp, who in his time also ran gambling casinos, was into running whore houses in Monmouth maybe he could have called it , the "Okay!! Corrall".

Jeff

For true Jeff. Morgan was arrested at the same time. There was an occasional show raid but brothels were pretty much openly tolerated in Peoria until about 1970 when the laws on the books began to actually be enforced.

As I'm sure you know, Wild Bill Hickok was also from Central Illinois. Both birthplaces are approximately 60 miles from me although in different directions. They are probably about 100 miles from each other.

Zodiac
01-26-2011, 10:01 PM
For true Jeff. Morgan was arrested at the same time. There was an occasional show raid but brothels were pretty much openly tolerated in Peoria until about 1970 when the laws on the books began to actually be enforced.

As I'm sure you know, Wild Bill Hickok was also from Central Illinois. Both birthplaces are approximately 60 miles from me although in different directions. They are probably about 100 miles from each other.

Hi Stan,

Ben Thompson, another infamous gunslinger, gambler, killer and sometime lawman of the 'Old West' was born less than 20 miles from myself, in Knottingley, in "Wild West Yorkshire", England!!! :cute_nod:

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

sdreid
01-26-2011, 10:33 PM
Thanks Zodiac. I didn't know much about Thompson, including where he was born, but he is briefly mentioned in the copy of Newton's The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers that I own, giving his birth year as 1843. It says that he killed 8+ and was slain in a gunfight on March 11 of 1884 at San Antonio.

Zodiac
01-26-2011, 11:13 PM
Thanks Zodiac. I didn't know much about Thompson, including where he was born, but he is briefly mentioned in the copy of Newton's The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers that I own, giving his birth year as 1843. It says that he killed 8+ and was slain in a gunfight on March 11 of 1884 at San Antonio.

Hi Stan,

Here are a few links on Ben Thompson from the net. I'm afraid that without trawling through what I, laughingly, like to refer to as my "library", but which actually amounts to vast, untold numbers of books, on diverse subjects, shelved, piled, stacked and randomly scattered, without any semblance of order or reason, throughout my humble abode, I cannot give you much more at the moment!!! Sorry, hope that the links are of some use to you anyway.

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/thompson.html

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1028

http://www.trivia-library.com/b/cowboy-biography-ben-thompson.htm

http://www.imagesofyorkshire.co.uk/famous_people/ben_thompson/billy_thompson.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Thompson

sdreid
01-27-2011, 01:18 AM
Appreciated Zodiac. Now I know a little more.

I do have a true-crime/mystery section in my home library:reading:

Mayerling
02-02-2011, 02:57 AM
If I am correct,wasn't Thompson once part of a small comic interlude with fellow gunslinger John Wesley Hardin and Wild Bill Hickok. Supposedly both gunslingers were in Hickok's town, and were discussing which of them was faster than Hickok with a gun. Each suggested the other take on Hickok (who was present), and nobody did.

sdreid
02-17-2011, 01:28 PM
That's interesting Jeff. It would have been unwise to take on Hickock in a gunfight no doubt.

sdreid
02-21-2011, 02:27 PM
It seems, every locale has its own set of interesting unsolved murders and that most of them are not that well known outside the area. I'd be interested to hear about yours. Here are my top ten murder mysteries in chronological order within 60 or so miles from me. I'll give a more detailed account on each in subsequent posts.

1-Johnny Cantwell in 1881 near North Pekin
2-George McNear in 1947 at Peoria
3-Bernie Shelton during 1948 in Peoria
4-The evanishment and assumed murder of Fay Rawley in 1953 near Summum
5-Janice May in 1955 at Canton
6-Susan Hendricks and her three children during 1983 in Bloomington
7-The Trick-or-Treat murders in 1984 at Decatur
8-The disappearance and probable slaying of Veronica Blumhorst in 1990 at Mendota
9-Tammy Zywicki during 1992 near Utica
10-Dalton Mesarchik in 2003 at Streator

Here's an updated list with solved eliminated and others added:

1-Johnny Cantwell murder near North Pekin-1881
2-Walter Donley disappearance and presumed murder in Peoria-1943
3-George McNear murder in Peoria-1947
4-Bernie Shelton murder in Peoria-1948
5-Fay Rawley disappearance and presumed murder near Summum-1953
6-Janice May murder in Canton-1955
7-Mary Jane Hanselman murder in Springfield-1958
8-Denise Laack murder near Granville-1979
9-Susan Hendricks and her three children murders in Bloomington-1983
10-Veronica Blumhorst disappearance and presumed murder in Mendota-1990
11-Tammy Zywicki murder near Utica-1992
12-Jennifer Lockmiller murder in Normal-1993
13-Dalton Mesarchik murder in Streator-2003

sdreid
03-14-2011, 03:15 PM
Wild Bill Hickok was also from Central Illinois. Both birthplaces are approximately 60 miles from me although in different directions. They are probably about 100 miles from each other.

I checked the map and it likes Earp and Hickock were born 90-95 miles apart.

sdreid
04-06-2011, 03:00 PM
A couple more to make mine a 15 list.

Carol Rofstad, 21, was found mortally beaten outside her sorority house in Normal, Illinois on December 23 of 1975. The Illinois State University student died the next day. A piece of railroad tie discovered near her was the suspected murder weapon. Two young white men, one carrying some kind of club, were seen in the area on the evening of the 22nd, the likely time of the attack. Most of the students had already left for the Christmas break but Carol, who was from a Chicago suburb, delayed her trip home because she was working at a store and was helping them make it through the last busy shopping days. The murder is unsolved.

Decatur, Illinois real estate agent, Sherry Lewis, 30, was discovered beaten and strangled on the kitchen floor of a home she'd been scheduled to show on August 5 of 1994. Carol had told coworkers that she was going to show a house but hadn't told them which one. She wasn't missed until the evening when she failed to meet with a family member. The slaying is still a mystery.

sdreid
05-04-2011, 03:27 PM
My current foremost 15 local murder mysteries:

1-Johnny Cantwell murder near North Pekin-1881
2-Walter Donley disappearance and presumed murder in Peoria-1943
3-George McNear murder in Peoria-1947
4-Bernie Shelton murder in Peoria-1948
5-Fay Rawley disappearance and presumed murder near Summum-1953
6-Janice May murder in Canton-1955
7-Mary Jane Hanselman murder in Springfield-1958
8-Carol Rofstad murder in Normal-1975
9-Denise Laack murder near Granville-1979
10-Susan Hendricks and her three children murders in Bloomington-1983
11-Veronica Blumhorst disappearance and presumed murder in Mendota-1990
12-Tammy Zywicki murder near Utica-1992
13-Jennifer Lockmiller murder in Normal-1993
14-Sherry Lewis murder in Decatur-1994
15-Dalton Mesarchik murder in Streator-2003

HollyDolly
05-16-2011, 05:10 PM
Hi Stan,

Here are a few links on Ben Thompson from the net. I'm afraid that without trawling through what I, laughingly, like to refer to as my "library", but which actually amounts to vast, untold numbers of books, on diverse subjects, shelved, piled, stacked and randomly scattered, without any semblance of order or reason, throughout my humble abode, I cannot give you much more at the moment!!! Sorry, hope that the links are of some use to you anyway.

Best wishes,
Zodiac.

http://www.frontiertimes.com/outlaws/thompson.html

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=1028

http://www.trivia-library.com/b/cowboy-biography-ben-thompson.htm

http://www.imagesofyorkshire.co.uk/famous_people/ben_thompson/billy_thompson.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Thompson

I read about this on a book on San Antonio and its ghosts.I'll have to look again,but I think Thompson or one of the men involved haunts the are where this took place.Also, King Fisher,Ben's friend is buried west of here in Uvalde Cemetary,which is about 60 or so miles west of San Antonio.And there is in Bandera ,Texas, up in the Texas Hill Country north of San Antonio, The Pioneer Times Museum, which may have something about some of these old time bad men would be a good place to check out.
And John Wesley Hardin's wife, Jane, is buried in the Mound Creek Cemetery around the Gillette-Denhawken area.The state of Texas used to have a highway sign pointing to the town of Mound Creek,but not any longer.Guess the place is now a ghost town.That was way back in the 1980s,early 90s.

Andrew Gable
06-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Some local Pennsylvania murder mysteries.

1. Norman R. Bechtel, killed in Philadelphia in January, 1932, and found lying on the grounds of an estate near death. He was found to have several shallow cuts on his face that seemed to form some sort of symbol to the discoverers (as a result of this, his murder was referred to as a 'hex murder') and seven stab wounds encircling his heart. A suspect was arrested after only a week, but must not have been the guy because it was seven years until another suspect, William Jordan, was arrested. Although I'm not 100% certain whether this was truly an unsolved case, I believe it may have been, for there were no details forthcoming in the papers about Jordan's trial, arrest of other gang members he implicated, etc.

2. Shaun Eileen Ritterson, the body of this 20-year old woman was found in a wooded area just off Holicong Road on Buckingham Mountain in 1977. She had been stabbed, her abdomen opened and mostly disembowelled.

3. A suitcase containing the dismembered remains of a woman were found in a creek along Valley View Road south of Downingtown in July, 1995. The following year, some clothing and two legs believed to have belonged to the woman in the suitcase were found in Bucks County. Eerily, the body was found near a tunnel referred to in local urban legends as a portal to Hell.

4. David Shearer, a Lock Haven bricklayer found dead in his home in July, 1915. Shearer and his "wife" (actually mistress) were preparing to move to nearby Emporium - the wife went ahead, and he would join her in a few days. After she hadn't heard from him for a few days, she sent a relative to check on him. At first, he was presumed a suicide as an empty envelope that had contained cyanide was found beside his bed and there was a hole in his head. When his body was examined at the morgue, however, it was found that both of his eyes had been removed, that a long, sharp instrument had been inserted through his nose, brain and out the top of his skull, and that he had been castrated. It was generally assumed that a jealous husband had killed him, but no one was ever captured.

5. A cardboard box containing human bones was discovered in a bale of scrap paper at a factory in York in 1948. A few days before, a dog had found a human arm with flesh attached and other bones along the Susquehanna River near Airville.

sdreid
06-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Thanks Andrew. Were the bones in your last case those of an adult?

Carol
06-02-2011, 06:18 PM
Hi Stan,

Would you be interested in a probable murder? My great-aunt, Emily Maria Trigg, in her early 20's, went missing in 1917. She was a maid and on her free afternoon she set off to walk home to visit her mother but never arrived. Her remains were eventually found in woods on the route she had taken. She was unrecognisable but for a necklet she wore. This took place in Kent, England, at Bluebell Hill. My mother, who was born in 1919, was named after her. The police believed that she had been murdered, probably by sailors. Chatham, the nearest town, was not only a Dockyard town but also home to the Army and Navy, and, of course, the First World War was still on at the time. Emily Maria was engaged to be married and was a quiet, respectable girl by all accounts.

Carol

sdreid
06-02-2011, 06:35 PM
Yes Carol, that is very interesting and tragic at the same time. Thanks for adding.

Carol
06-02-2011, 06:45 PM
Yes Carol, that is very interesting and tragic at the same time. Thanks for adding.

I don't think I've ever had a reply this quick before! I've been thinking a lot about her recently. No-one was able to tell how she had been murdered as only her skeleton remained (or parts of it). Poor darling.

Love
Carol

Andrew Gable
06-02-2011, 08:32 PM
Thanks Andrew. Were the bones in your last case those of an adult?

They were. I'm trying to find out whether the rest of a skeleton was ever found. They were of a woman - I notice I forgot to mention that in the OP.

sdreid
06-23-2011, 05:03 AM
I'm surprised the case wasn't added as a possible to Cleveland Torso.

SarahLee
06-23-2011, 10:52 PM
I hadn't realised that I had so many unsolved murders in my area until I had a look into it :anxious:

Just for starters, here are 28 unsolved cases (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/wales_politics/8351889.stm) that South Wales Police re-opened in 2009.
Some of these I'd heard about, some I hadn't . . . but out of all of them it saddens me to see that there are two cases where the bodies of baby boys were found (1955 and 1972) and the authorities didn't even manage to put an identity to them.

Then just over the water in Bristol there are a further 24 unsolved murders (http://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/4826989847/in/set-72157625570924349) since the 1940s. Among them we have the case of Glenis Carruthers in 1974, which early on was rumoured to be connected to the Christmas killing of Joanna Yeates.

Almost certainly not a murder, but something of an unsolved mystery anyway: Henry Thomas a 73 year old from Ebbw Vale, a purported victim of "spontaneous human combustion" in 1980.

sdreid
07-19-2011, 05:00 AM
Thanks Sarah! I particularly find the 1957 murders of little June and Royston Sheasby intersting.

sdreid
07-19-2011, 05:07 AM
I have decided to add another to my list.

Richard William Griener disappearance and presumed murder in Pekin-1972

I did not include this on my original list because, although there was never a conviction, I was fairly certain this boy was killed by serial child killer William "Freight Train" Guatney. That is no longer my assumption.

sdreid
08-11-2011, 05:03 AM
I say that because Guatney lived in the south during the winter then came north in warm weather to work at fairs and carnivals. This crime happened in January in Illinois.

curious
08-13-2011, 05:16 PM
On Jan. 4, 1995, Edwin Frazier Jones was found murdered in his small grocery store in Baileyton, Tenn. He had owned and operated Jones Grocery in Baileyton for approximately 38 years. Interstate 81 had just carved its way through northeast Tennessee a few years earlier, and his store was located just off I-81.

So far as I know there is no clue as to who robbed and murdered Frazier Jones (as he was known). He was an older man at the time of his death. It is my understanding that his murder is the only unsolved murder in our little county.

My suspicions are that Jones was not the only person to be killed in this way. I wonder how often someone drives off the Interstate in a rural area, robs someone and glides away before the crime is discovered?

I know more places are equipped with security cameras, etc, now but some of those little places along the Interstates are pretty exposed.

sdreid
08-18-2011, 05:11 AM
I had not seen that one before curious. It's pretty much absent on the web too.

sdreid
09-17-2011, 05:00 AM
9 -- Twenty-one-year-old Tammy Zywicki left New Jersey on a trip to her college in Iowa. Along the way, she dropped her brother off at his college in Chicago. On August 23 of 1992 near Utica, IL, her derelict car was found. Passers-by later told of seeing Tammy talking to a truck driver with the hood of her car up. Nine days later, her stabbed body was found in Missouri. The truck had a rather unique paint scheme but it was never traced. With the close proximity to Veronica Blumhorst, some thought a serial killer might be about. The so-called Truck-Stop Killer was mentioned but the case is still unresolved.

Adding to the serial killer question, the remains of a deceased Caucasian female were discovered in a farmer's field that was proximate to where Veronica and Tammy disappeared. This woman, who was found on September 13 of 1991, has not been identified and her cause of death hasn't been determined.

sdreid
09-20-2011, 05:01 AM
The panic was heightened even further when the body of yet another woman was discovered in a different field. That case, however, later turned out to be solved as a domestic murder.

curious
09-20-2011, 10:17 PM
I had not seen that one before curious. It's pretty much absent on the web too.

A $15,000 reward was offered 9 years after the incident.

http://greenevillesun.com/story/268066

OctavBotnar
09-21-2011, 09:43 PM
Wiki has a good list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsolved_murders

sdreid
09-22-2011, 05:00 AM
Yes Octav, they have many good ones there. The only one there and on my local list is Mary Jane Hanselman.

Magpie
09-22-2011, 05:06 AM
The disappearance of Tom Gencarelli has been a much discussed local mystery for as long as I can remember:

http://officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=11150

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2223351&archive=true


http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090220/OTT_Unsolved_Murders_090220/20090222/?hub=OttawaHome

sdreid
09-23-2011, 12:24 AM
Thanks Magpie. I hadn't heard of that one either but I guess that's a reason for this thread.

Magpie
09-23-2011, 08:21 AM
Every couple of years they cops get tip and drag the local marshes for a body, but they've never found anything. The cops are pretty sure who did it (as are a lot of other people) but there's no case against them.

sdreid
10-14-2011, 05:01 AM
Another unresolved murder in my area is that of Mary Maynor. On May 31 of 1974, she was found dead in her Pekin, IL apartment. The cause of death was multiple stab wounds.

sdreid
11-12-2011, 06:12 AM
Mary Maynor was murdered when she was 23. Her two little girls were locked in a closet by the killer before he stabbed their mother 70 times and then went on to strangle her. The daughters were too young, 2 and 3, to give the police a full account.

Vila
11-25-2011, 11:13 PM
I'm sure that I have read somewhere that there were a few of the Atlanta Missing & Murdered Children cases that the investigators weren't able to link to Wayne Williams.

And there was a black couple from Athens, GA who were murdered during the '60s Civil Rights movement whose killers were never found.

Vila

sdreid
12-14-2011, 06:04 AM
I don't think many honestly believe that Wayne Williams murdered all the victims assigned to the Atlanta Child Killer.

sdreid
01-14-2012, 06:06 AM
And there was a black couple from Athens, GA who were murdered during the '60s Civil Rights movement whose killers were never found.

Do you know their names Vila? I am having trouble finding a case that exactly matches your description. No big deal if you don't remember.

HollyDolly
02-06-2012, 09:44 PM
:dogrun: I don't know if i mentioned this before,but there was the Servant Girl Annhilator in Austin,and the axe murder of a family in Glidden ,both in Texas. Somewhere either at Lone Star Spirits or elsewhere, you can google murder at the Gunther Hotel,San Antonio.A woman was murdered at the hotel,and later her killer moved to the Crockett Hotel,back in the 1960s.The police were able to track the killer to the Crockett,where he shot himself, but they have never been able to learn who the victim was. They just found a woman's body today on the south side of San Antonio,,and while they now know who she is, they don't have any idea who killed her.
On Eisenhauer Road they found a man's body,but again nothing as to who killed him.Lot of dumped bodies here lately ,mainly on the south side of San Antonio.

sdreid
02-18-2012, 06:12 AM
Thanks Holly. Yes, that hotel murder is a sort of a reverse murder mystery, that is, we think we know who the murderer was but we don't know who the murdered was. Actually, little of her was found although the assumption was that she was put through a meat grinder and flushed down the toilet in a fashion like Dennis Nilsen did with his murders in England.

sdreid
03-15-2012, 05:02 AM
Mary Maynor was murdered when she was 23. Her two little girls were locked in a closet by the killer before he stabbed their mother 70 times and then went on to strangle her. The daughters were too young, 2 and 3, to give the police a full account.

I wonder if BTK was ever in IL.

sdreid
04-15-2012, 05:03 AM
The Maynor murder was recently mentioned in a local newspaper article about a retiring policeman who'd worked on the case. It was apparently a great frustration to him.

sdreid
05-13-2012, 01:40 PM
And there was a black couple from Athens, GA who were murdered during the '60s Civil Rights movement whose killers were never found.

I did find the murders of Dorothy and Roger Malcolm but that was 1946.

sdreid
06-13-2012, 11:56 AM
George and Mae Dorsey were murdered in the same incident.

MattCoughlin
06-25-2012, 02:08 PM
Newspaper series I and my partner wrote regarding Shaun Ritterson started Sunday, here's the opening paragraph and links to parts 1 and 2...

The killer mutilated her body in unimaginable ways and dumped her on a wooded hillside, leaving her partially hidden from the road that wound down from a church and cemetery at the top.
She lay, naked and face down, on a bed of dead leaves; crumbled bits of tanned vegetation tangled in her frizzy brown hair. There were two empty beer cans and a sunflower seed pouch ditched nearby; trash from another day. Her last day on the hillside was Sunday, June 12, 1977. It was a warm and clear day, with temperatures in the high 70s and a slight breeze blowing through the woods as the birds, squirrels and ants picked away at the world.
No one knew how long she lay there beneath the trees, her arms tucked against her body. It could have been just an hour, or 12 or even 36 hours before she was found...

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/courier_times_news/the-girl-on-church-hill-a-murder-mystery/article_16c630c2-5e0e-56e3-9c48-badd1ebdbd9b.html

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/courier_times_news/the-girl-on-church-hill-retracing-shaun-s-movements-to/article_77f42398-169c-5e63-9903-e2d5afdd40f5.html

Magpie
06-26-2012, 05:36 AM
Valerie Anastacia Drew, 13.

Events:Left her Wiley Street home on Sept. 25, 1970, walking north with two teenage male friends who were hitchhiking to Peterborough. She was reported missing by family the next day and searchers found her body on the evening of Sept. 27 in the area that is now south of Conacher Drive.


As an aside, this is the neighbourhood I moved to when I returned to Canada in 1980. It's almost entire developed now, but even when I lived there, there were lots of open fields in the area. I never heard anything about the case until a couple of years ago when Kingston police started a public campaign to bring attention to several cold cases on their books.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=1993.0

sdreid
07-16-2012, 12:44 PM
Thanks Matt and Magpie. You get me reading up on these cases I either don't remember or haven't heard of.:2thumbsup:

sdreid
08-15-2012, 12:02 PM
Speaking of possible budding serial killers, Richie Neavear, 18, was found stabbed to death in a patch of tall weeds south of Pekin, IL on July 14, 1995.

On September seventh of 2009, 27-year-old Dustin Englebrect was found buried on his property in Mason County, also south of the city. Police are not releasing the cause of death but, since people don't bury themselves, we can safely assume that it was a homicide. There are several men who are suspects in both murders.

Quote changed to correct name from Randy to Dustin.

A man named Randy Deskin was tried and acquitted for Englebrecht's murder. He reportedly also denied any knowledge of the Neavear slaying. This month Deskin was found hanging from a tree. I'm not sure if murder has totally been ruled out but the authorities seem to be pretty sure it was suicide.

Stan41
08-15-2012, 08:59 PM
The disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa, President of the Teamsters Union in Detroit July 31, 1975 has always puzzled me.
Stan

sdreid
09-14-2012, 10:42 AM
Yes, that's a big one in a pretty big region.

Beowulf
09-14-2012, 02:48 PM
Thanks Matt and Magpie. You get me reading up on these cases I either don't remember or haven't heard of.:2thumbsup:

Yes, and some are quite disturbing. Sheesh.

sdreid
10-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Odd how some cases gain national attention while others don't even though they seem at least as interesting.

sdreid
11-09-2012, 12:52 PM
Even cases that are huge locally sometime go unmentioned beyond that.

Cogidubnus
11-09-2012, 09:39 PM
You could be right Stan...some of the big US cases you've mentioned in the past have been fresh to me as a Brit...and I bet some of our domestic cases have slipped beneath the average US citizen's radar for the same reason...I'll bet for example there are a lot of folk left pond who never heard of Harold Shipman or Fred & Rose West...and ditto right pond for, say, the Black Dahlia...

Interestingly the latter came up in a pub quiz a year or so back, and only the wife and I had ever heard of the case by that name, never mind the name Elizabeth Short...

Perhaps we're all wierdos on Casebook!

All the best

Dave

Graham
11-09-2012, 09:44 PM
Dave,

I had a customer just round the corner from Cromwell Street, and I can tell you that most of the outside-broadcast vans that swarmed to the area were either Japanese or American. There must have been something in what Fred and Rose got up to that appeals to the Nipponese and Yank appetites....

G

sdreid
11-09-2012, 09:55 PM
Yes, it works both ways. Probably 99% of Americans have never heard of the Julia Wallace Case even though it's one of the top cases anywhere ever. I'd not heard of it until the early 1980s.:shakehead:

Graham
11-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Ya could be right, Stan. The first I ever heard of the Black Dahlia was in a 'murder compendium' book by our own dear Colin Wilson. Yet I'd read loads about Zodiac and Lizzie Borden. Strange, or what? And Ted Bundy, of course. And not forgetting (ever) the Lindbergh Kidnap Case, which after Maybrick and Hanratty is my own personal favourite.

G

Limehouse
12-08-2012, 07:46 AM
Sally McGrath disappeared after being seen with a man in a pub in Peterborough on July 11, 1979. Eight months later her body was found in a shallow grave in woodlands at the edge of the city. Several local men were questioned by her murder remained unsolved for over 30 years.

Last year, as a result of a 'cold case' review, police arrested Paul Taylor. he had been questioned at the time of the murder but relased due to a lack of evidence. Previous to Sally's murder, Taylor had been accused of several rapes, but had not been charged.

On December 4th (this week), after an eight week trial, during which Taylor also stood accused of at least two rapes and several attempted rapes dating from around the time of Sally's murder, Taylor was convicted of Sally's murder and the sexual offences. He was senteced to a minimum of 18 years in prison.

Taylor was a prolific sexual offender, but due to the way sexual offences against women were viewed at the time, he had evaded punishment. The cold case review allowed police to apply a fresh approach and re-interview women who had been attacked by Taylor all those years ago.

Sally is buried in a cemetery opposite my home. She is remembered locally as a bright and friendly girl. Her family, who still live locally, are relieved to see someone finally brought to justice for her murder.

sdreid
12-18-2012, 01:58 PM
Eighteen years sounds like an extremely light sentence for murder.

Limehouse
12-18-2012, 06:59 PM
Eighteen years sounds like an extremely light sentence for murder.

Yes, it is a light sentence, and it also includes sentencing for the rapes and sexual attacks. However, it is a minimum sentence, so he could serve more. He is now 60 years old, and will therefore be at least 78 before he is released.

What a long time Sally's family had to wait for justice.

Robert
12-18-2012, 07:41 PM
"He is now 60 years old, and will therefore be at least 78 before he is released."

I wouldn't bank on it. There's the "compassion" card, for a start. Let's hope he stays healthy in prison - only way of keeping him in!

Limehouse
12-22-2012, 10:36 AM
"He is now 60 years old, and will therefore be at least 78 before he is released."

I wouldn't bank on it. There's the "compassion" card, for a start. Let's hope he stays healthy in prison - only way of keeping him in!

I don't know if that will apply here Robert, as he got a minimum of 18 years. I think he has to serve that before any consideration is made toward parole.

ChainzCooper
12-22-2012, 10:49 PM
One of my friends Mohammed Sundal, owner of a Curry Restaurant in my town was murdered on the night of December 6th. I don't think the police know much at this point a friend of mine from high school is a Sheriff's deputy and is going to keep me posted on what he knows. Its really crazy I feel awful this holiday season knowing Mohammed had a wife and four kids some a hole just shot him to death for no reason outside his restaurant. Hopefully they will find who did it and give them the death penalty its lethal injection in Raleigh for this p o s. I sure do miss Mohammed, one great guy :sad3:
Jordan

sdreid
12-22-2012, 11:24 PM
Sorry to hear that Jordan. It wasn't a robbery?

ChainzCooper
12-23-2012, 04:38 AM
Sorry to hear that Jordan. It wasn't a robbery?

I don't think so I talked to the owner of the convenience store next door and he said it wasn't a robbery. But then again his english wasn't very good so he might have misspoke. Hope they find who did it my friend with the sheriff's department has my cell number and I haven't heard from him since I called and told him to keep me posted. I guess I just have to wait and let the police do their job but it totally sucks
Jordan

Brenda
12-23-2012, 06:45 AM
Jordan,
I am sorry to hear of this. I am just a step away from you in Durham. As I'm sure you probably know, we get a little more than our fair share of crime and violence, I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this kind of trauma at the holiday time like this.

My house was robbed a few years back. Thank goodness I was at work at the time and my daughter at school. She came home from school and discovered the crime and has never fully recovered from it, she is always afraid of being alone.

I'm pretty sure it was kids out to steal stuff for drug money. I have a lunch box collection and they stole the Powerpuff Girls lunchbox but left the vintage Beatles lunchbox behind. :scratchchin:

My condolences to you Jordan at this difficult time.

ChainzCooper
12-23-2012, 04:52 PM
I know right Durham is weird other towns in NC are just not like it I'm thinking about eventually moving to the coast. I really hope they find who did this but I'm really not optimistic. The Herald Sun didn't print much about it the news has run a few stories. I just hope this isn't forgotten. He was really an awesome guy probably the best business owner I have ever met. While other restaurants get you in get you out he took a real interest in you as a person we had some great late night conversations. But thanks for your condolences
Jordan

curious
12-24-2012, 11:23 AM
I know right Durham is weird other towns in NC are just not like it I'm thinking about eventually moving to the coast. I really hope they find who did this but I'm really not optimistic. The Herald Sun didn't print much about it the news has run a few stories. I just hope this isn't forgotten. He was really an awesome guy probably the best business owner I have ever met. While other restaurants get you in get you out he took a real interest in you as a person we had some great late night conversations. But thanks for your condolences
Jordan

Hi, Jordan,
I'm sorry for your loss.

Perhaps the reason nothing much is being printed is because it's an open investigation they just don't have enough to move on yet.

This isn't that long in a murder investigation. I realize it seems eons to you and his other loved ones. Waiting is the hardest part.

curious

ChainzCooper
12-24-2012, 08:49 PM
I don't mean specific mention of detail as it pertains to the case. I'm talking about printing an article or just a mention on the front page saying where you can call with any information you might have about this murder. Police don't have much to go on and need help, volunteers actually canvassed the area recently to help out (which I had no clue about because like I said there hasn't been much about it) They are going to go with the standard Obama 'this is under investigation' line which is crap because they could have told me about this canvassing and I would have been there
Jordan

sdreid
01-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Another more recent local case is the slaying of Kyle Harrell, 27. He was found murdered by sawn-off shotgun on a dirt road outside of Bartonville, IL on May 3 of 2000. There has been no arrest.

Mayerling
01-19-2013, 12:22 AM
With regard to ChainzCooper's sad story about a friend who was murdered before Christmas, one of my neighbors (Larry) had been searching for his mother for several years - she had become a street person. He was informed before Christmas she was strangled in Los Angeles. Really double blow there as he was trying to find her.

Jeff

Mayerling
01-19-2013, 12:29 AM
Thanks Holly. Yes, that hotel murder is a sort of a reverse murder mystery, that is, we think we know who the murderer was but we don't know who the murdered was. Actually, little of her was found although the assumption was that she was put through a meat grinder and flushed down the toilet in a fashion like Dennis Nilsen did with his murders in England.

Hi Stan,

I was recently looking at the Wikipedia article on Alfred Rouse, and there is a family who wants the government to allow a DNA comparison of the "burning car" remains with their family members - it seems at the time of the January 1930 killing a member of the family went out for a medical reason and never returned.

Jeff

sdreid
01-19-2013, 12:58 AM
That's interesting about Rouse Jeff. Yes, that victim was never identified. Rouse may not have even known the guy's name if he was a down and out. I wasn't sure there was enough left to DNA test but I suppose bone/marrow or teeth might harbor some tissue - worth a try.

sdreid
01-23-2013, 02:14 PM
I don't see much about this missing man, Williams Briggs, on the internet other than basically a repeat of what is on the Wiki.

MattCoughlin
01-31-2013, 10:02 PM
Just a link, updating the death of the prime suspect in a 1977 slaying before police finished their investigation.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/the_intelligencer_news/primary-suspect-in-murder-of-bristol-woman-dies/article_53d39007-410d-5870-8609-ee62debbcf6d.html

Newspaper series I and my partner wrote regarding Shaun Ritterson started Sunday, here's the opening paragraph and links to parts 1 and 2...

The killer mutilated her body in unimaginable ways and dumped her on a wooded hillside, leaving her partially hidden from the road that wound down from a church and cemetery at the top.
She lay, naked and face down, on a bed of dead leaves; crumbled bits of tanned vegetation tangled in her frizzy brown hair. There were two empty beer cans and a sunflower seed pouch ditched nearby; trash from another day. Her last day on the hillside was Sunday, June 12, 1977. It was a warm and clear day, with temperatures in the high 70s and a slight breeze blowing through the woods as the birds, squirrels and ants picked away at the world.
No one knew how long she lay there beneath the trees, her arms tucked against her body. It could have been just an hour, or 12 or even 36 hours before she was found...

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/courier_times_news/the-girl-on-church-hill-a-murder-mystery/article_16c630c2-5e0e-56e3-9c48-badd1ebdbd9b.html

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/local/courier_times_news/the-girl-on-church-hill-retracing-shaun-s-movements-to/article_77f42398-169c-5e63-9903-e2d5afdd40f5.html

sdreid
01-31-2013, 11:34 PM
Thanks Matt - Well done:2thumbsup:

sdreid
02-15-2013, 12:58 PM
I will be surprised if it's the uncle since the murder went far beyond a crime of passion but I guess we'll know soon.

sdreid
03-12-2013, 02:32 PM
I suppose he could have been laying a false trail.

sdreid
04-11-2013, 01:16 PM
I don't see much about this missing man, Williams Briggs, on the internet other than basically a repeat of what is on the Wiki.

The missing man's full name was William Thomas Briggs.

sdreid
04-19-2013, 12:59 PM
The Wiki article said Williams but I don't see that in other accounts.

sdreid
04-25-2013, 04:38 PM
Since I think we can consider the Trick-or-Treat murders just solved, I'll add a replacement.

X -- In Normal, Illinois on August 28 of 1993, Jennifer Lockmiller was found murdered in her apartment. The co-ed had been strangled with an electrical cord and stabbed with scissors. Alan Beaman, her former boyfriend, was convicted of the slaying. After 13 years in prison, the guilty verdict was thrown out by a higher court and the State quickly dropped the charges. The case remains unsolved. Interestingly, one of Beaman's biggest champions was Jennifer's mother who always thought he was innocent. Some believe that the original verdict was due to the defendant's perceived cocky attitude.

Alan Beaman was declared legally innocent by a judge today.

sdreid
05-17-2013, 01:00 PM
I expect that he will seek some sort of damages/reparations now.

sdreid
06-15-2013, 01:10 PM
Carol Rofstad, 21, was found mortally beaten outside her sorority house in Normal, Illinois on December 23 of 1975. The Illinois State University student died the next day. A piece of railroad tie discovered near her was the suspected murder weapon. Two young white men, one carrying some kind of club, were seen in the area on the evening of the 22nd, the likely time of the attack. Most of the students had already left for the Christmas break but Carol, who was from a Chicago suburb, delayed her trip home because she was working at a store and was helping them make it through the last busy shopping days. The murder is unsolved.

I drove past the Rofstad murder scene a few weeks ago and it appears that the building at the address is still there although I didn't see any indication that it is still a sorority house.

RivkahChaya
07-03-2013, 03:16 AM
I don't think many honestly believe that Wayne Williams murdered all the victims assigned to the Atlanta Child Killer.
Except that there were no more murders after he was arrested.

Now, it's possible that he didn't commit every single murder considered part of the "Atlanta Child Murders," but at the time, Atlanta had the highest per capita murder rate in the US, higher than NYC, or Miami. If I had to guess, I would say that the few teenage girls included in the "child murder" case were not Williams' victims, but I won't say for certain they weren't, either, because apparently motiveless murders and disappearances of children of both genders came to a screeching halt after his arrest. I will say that I think he absolutely did do the murders he was convicted of, which was only two or three of them-- the ones where there was fiber evidence, and where his car was seen driving away from a body dump.

Andrew Gable missed one PA mystery: the boy in the box. In the 1950s, a boy about 4 years old was found naked in a box that had one contained a crib or bassinet (IIRC, the latter). He'd been beaten to death, so the ME called it willful murder, but not only was there never an arrest, the boy was never identified.

A college student named Lauren Spierer went missing two years ago in the town where I used to live, and where DH and I went to college. There's security footage of her heading apparently home at 4am, but she didn't make it. The last person known to be with her was not only drunk, but in a fight with someone, and claims to have no memory of the night. He got punched pretty hard in the head (obvious bruising) although his story has changed, and it's suspicious. Also, her shoes were in his apartment. Her parents don't think she would have walked home barefoot.

She'd been drinking at a bar with a fake ID, and also getting high, apparently with codeine, according to some friends who were with her in the bar, but claim not to have seen her after about midnight (when the security footage shows she was alive).

She was really tiny, and had a heart condition called long QT syndrome, for which she took medication. When she first turned up missing, there was a huge search for her, because she could have passed out just about anywhere.

After dragging rivers, and searching landfills with cadaver dogs, the police concluded that someone is responsible for concealing her-- either that, or she disappeared intentionally, but she was 20, not in debt, or in any kind of trouble, and left money behind, so the idea that she disappeared intentionally wasn't pursued.

Her parents think that she died from drinking, doing drugs, and her heart condition, and because her friends who were with her didn't want to be arrested for underage drinking, trafficking in drugs, or even murder for providing her with drugs, they hid the body. The parents are bringing a wrongful death suit against a couple of the friends, because they are frustrated with the police not being able to charge them with anything.

I think the parents are hoping to win a judgment, and they'll try to use dismissing it to bargain a confession out of them-- what they really want is their daughter's body.

RivkahChaya
07-03-2013, 03:20 AM
Alan Beaman was declared legally innocent by a judge today.

Do you mean, "not guilty," or do you mean he got a judgment of factual innocence?

sdreid
07-03-2013, 04:30 AM
Do you mean, "not guilty," or do you mean he got a judgment of factual innocence?

Judged factually innocent is my understanding.

RivkahChaya
07-03-2013, 04:32 AM
That's impressive, because it's hard even to get a hearing for that.

sdreid
08-03-2013, 11:39 AM
Another case around here was the murder of Matthew A. Tuning who was found beaten to death on his bed in his Springfield, IL home. He was missed when failed to pick up his 8 y/o son from school. His truck was missing but was found the same day. Twelve years later the case is unresolved.

Andrew Gable
08-17-2013, 11:58 PM
Andrew Gable missed one PA mystery: the boy in the box. In the 1950s, a boy about 4 years old was found naked in a box that had one contained a crib or bassinet (IIRC, the latter). He'd been beaten to death, so the ME called it willful murder, but not only was there never an arrest, the boy was never identified.
I don't know *how* I forgot it, it's one of the bigger unsolved crimes in the state, but somehow I did. I think it was a bassinet box. I seem to recall that police were attempting to trace a blanket the body was wrapped in; I think they were linking it to a group home nearby, I guess thinking maybe the boy's killer came from there, but I don't recall anything concrete coming of that.

Documentation of some old unsolved murders is woefully inadequate, I assume not just here but probably worldwide, which is why I'm indebted for the posting of those articles on the Ritterson killing. A ton of information I hadn't known before (I didn't know much more than that it happened, really). Most of the ones I mentioned fall into that category; the bones discovered in York, as far as I know, don't receive more than a handful of newspaper articles addressing them. And the David Shearer killing I mentioned is woefully underdocumented; the murder was mentioned twice (once when the body was found, and then when it was buried).

sdreid
08-20-2013, 12:06 PM
Regarding PA, for me it would also be the New Castle Murder Swamp although many try to tie it to the Cleveland Torso Case.

Andrew Gable
08-24-2013, 09:28 PM
Personally, I don't know: I'm tempted to connect the Murder Swamp and Torso cases, but I'm not criminologist enough to say for sure. Those victims, as you know, were merely beheaded and not wholly dismembered like Torso did. I do, however, think that the McKees Rocks boxcar torsos were connected.

sdreid
09-16-2013, 06:09 AM
I see where James Badal has a new book out entitled Hell's Wasteland which covers the Pennsylvania Torso Murders.

Ausgirl
09-17-2013, 05:29 AM
The Andrew St, Windsor address where Frederick Bailey Deeming buried his wife is right around the corner from a flat I lived in for many years. So that's pretty regional (and sort-of Ripper related, too! if not terribly mysterious..)

And here's a very Thames-esque but conversely torso-less murder from 1937, in which some neatly severed limbs are found floating in a sugar sack, just a short tram ride from that flat of mine in Windsor. This one really is a mystery, however.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=K-1UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EJIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7345%2C4563861

Penhalion
10-04-2013, 09:10 AM
I'm a long time reader but first time poster. Hi everybody!

There are two unsolved homicides that I feel a particular connection to. I had a brief career as a police dispatcher in a suburb of Chicago. I happened to be working (on the radio) at the times when these two reports came over. Although neither of them occurred in the town I was working in, I could hear all the 'chatter'.

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Jaclyn_Dowaliby

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Mike_O'Mara

Cogidubnus
10-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Hello Penhalion

Not sure I can contibute meaningfully to this particular thread, but I can and do say "welcome to the boards" - hope you get as much enjoyment out of Casebook as I do

All the best

Dave

sdreid
11-04-2013, 05:51 AM
I see where James Badal has a new book out entitled Hell's Wasteland which covers the Pennsylvania Torso Murders.

I assume he includes the 1940 McKees Rocks, PA victims although there's virtual certainty that they were killed in Youngstown, OH.

sdreid
12-02-2013, 04:53 AM
According to the Torso Wiki article, the Torso movie is supposed to be back on the burner after being shelved - we'll see.

sdreid
01-01-2014, 07:13 AM
It looks like it might be an independent movie now which could possibly be better.

sdreid
02-01-2014, 06:30 AM
They won't have studio heads forcing them to falsify a solution because they think that's what the audience wants.

GUT
02-01-2014, 06:07 PM
G'Day Stan

They won't have studio heads forcing them to falsify a solution because they think that's what the audience wants.

But they do want to sell tickets so may falsify a suspect because it's what they think the audience wants.

sdreid
02-19-2014, 05:53 AM
That's certainly a part of it.

sdreid
02-20-2014, 06:15 AM
Anyway, we will have to wait and see.

sdreid
03-15-2014, 05:19 AM
Or wait and not see, whichever the case.

RivkahChaya
03-15-2014, 07:13 AM
http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Jaclyn_Dowaliby[/url]The Jaclyn Dowaliby case is very interesting in that the police consider it closed, because her father was brought to trial, convicted, and his conviction overturned. He is sometimes referred to as her stepfather, because he is her mother's second husband, but he adopted her. He was convicted because the jury saw what looked like impact marks from a fist on a door in a photo of one of the bedrooms from the house, and inferred that the father was violent.

The marks were not introduced as evidence, though, and were not made by the father, and in fact, were present already when the family bought the house. The photos were used just to show the layout of the house. The defense attorney learned this post-conviction, and used it to to get the verdict overturned. In the US, the jury cannot make up things like that, and can only consider evidence that is introduced, not that the members infer.

sdreid
04-14-2014, 05:08 AM
Since the conviction was overturned rather than reversed, I assume he could still be tried again although that is unlikely without some new evidence.

sdreid
05-12-2014, 05:11 AM
I see that David Dowaliby's conviction was reversed outright and the Illinois Supreme Court refused to review that finding so he can not be retried.

Ginger
05-12-2014, 01:37 PM
In the US, the jury cannot make up things like that, and can only consider evidence that is introduced, not that the members infer.

I've been on a jury, and in our case at least, we ended up acquitting the fellow largely based on the experiences of myself and another member in having ridden in the back of a Chevy cargo van with a bare steel floor, and knowing in consequence that there was no way the defendant could possibly have overheard the discussion that the driver and passenger were having unless they were shouting.

The judge did tell us that we weren't go to look at the scene of the crime (he let us go home overnight), and that we had to rely upon the evidence presented, but it seemed very much common sense to all of us to make use of all available knowledge, and not treat it as an exercise in scoring a debate.

The prosecutor had proved that the defendant was in the van when a crime was being planned, but by no means had proved (or even tried to) that the defendant could overhear. The defense didn't say a word about that either. I'm guessing that neither one had ever ridden around in the back of one of those.

Unless the jury were explicitly told that those marks were there when the Dowaliby family moved in, then I think they made a reasonable assumption in treating them as evidence, since they were part of the photograph.

From a layman's point of view, it often appears that trials are more of a game than an attempt to discover the truth.

sdreid
05-22-2014, 03:26 PM
I wonder if he'd be willing to take a polygraph now that he's in the clear.

GUT
05-22-2014, 03:29 PM
G'day Stan

I wonder if he'd be willing to take a polygraph now that he's in the clear.

I know I wouldn't, either way.

sdreid
05-23-2014, 05:11 AM
I know where you're coming from and I know they're not particularly accurate but I think I would go for it if I was innocent.

GUT
05-23-2014, 03:39 PM
G'Day Stan

But if it says innocent plenty of people will say it's not accurate anyway and if it shows a false guilty they'll say, see I told you so.

To me it's a no win.

belinda
05-23-2014, 04:04 PM
I don't know if Bundy was ever polygraphed but if he was I bet he'd have passed

GUT
05-23-2014, 04:25 PM
I don't know if Bundy was ever polygraphed but if he was I bet he'd have passed

And there lieth the problem with polygraphs.

Mayerling
05-24-2014, 02:36 PM
And there lieth the problem with polygraphs.

It reminds me of a "Seinfeld" episode where Jerry's current girlfriend wants him to take a polygraph when he claims something she can't believe. So when talking to George about this situation, Geoge gives an enigmatic smile and just says, "Remember, you can answer what you want if you believe it!" Which would mean that any serial killer has to gear himself or herself up to believing they never did anything and they can beat the polygraph test!!

GUT
05-24-2014, 03:15 PM
It reminds me of a "Seinfeld" episode where Jerry's current girlfriend wants him to take a polygraph when he claims something she can't believe. So when talking to George about this situation, Geoge gives an enigmatic smile and just says, "Remember, you can answer what you want if you believe it!" Which would mean that any serial killer has to gear himself or herself up to believing they never did anything and they can beat the polygraph test!!

Not sure it's as simple as George makes out, but there's a reason most countries/States don't let them be used as evidence.

Beowulf
05-30-2014, 11:00 AM
According to the Torso Wiki article, the Torso movie is supposed to be back on the burner after being shelved - we'll see.

Was this movie to be about the torso murders of the 1888 period or later?

Btw, Torso: 'shelved' and 'back burner'...not a pretty picture.

sdreid
06-17-2014, 05:14 AM
Was this movie to be about the torso murders of the 1888 period or later?

Btw, Torso: 'shelved' and 'back burner'...not a pretty picture.

Hi Beowulf:

It's supposed to be about the unsolved Cleveland murders of the 1930s

sdreid
07-15-2014, 06:13 AM
Not sure it's as simple as George makes out, but there's a reason most countries/States don't let them be used as evidence.

I think your willingness to take a polygraph is viewed with at least as much importance as the results.

sdreid
08-14-2014, 07:11 AM
I think your willingness to take a polygraph is viewed with at least as much importance as the results.

In a personal case, even more so.

sdreid
09-11-2014, 05:22 AM
I don't know if Bundy was ever polygraphed but if he was I bet he'd have passed

Yes, polygraphs don't have much use when the person has no conscience.

sdreid
10-10-2014, 05:13 AM
Yes, polygraphs don't have much use when the person has no conscience.

They are as much a head game as anything.

Rosella
10-10-2014, 07:03 PM
I certainly feel that if you are mentally ill and truly believe what you are saying polygraph tests are of no use. For instance, I think that if Anna Anderson had been given one in regard to her claim to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia, she would have passed with flying colours.

sdreid
11-10-2014, 06:20 AM
Yes, knowing that you are lying helps the polygraph work a little better in my opinion.

sdreid
12-10-2014, 06:14 AM
I think inveterate liars can pass polygraphs pretty well too because lies and the truth are all the same to them.