where are the surviving ripper victims

[Doppelganger]

please note that my interest is new & was sparked by Patricia Cornwell`s book(which greatly dissappionted) so if the answer to this is well know & i missed it then sorry.

what is generally known about serial killers is they don`t start off killing right away they work their way up to murder ,has there ever been a study into knife attacks where the victims lived to see if it could be the work of the ripper?

[kensei]

Look into Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson, knifing victims attacked but not killed in February and March, 1888. Full details on each are to be found here on Casebook.

[Bob Hinton]

Look into Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson, knifing victims attacked but not killed in February and March, 1888. Full details on each are to be found here on Casebook.

I believe I might have been the first person to suggest these two as possible Ripper victims in my book 'From Hell - The Jack the Ripper Mystery'.

[George Hutchinson]

Susan Ward is a great example as well. I think she's just as likely as Annie and more likely than Ada (albeit after the main scare started).

PHILIP

[Monty]

Susan Ward wasnt a victim. Debs sterling research has shown her to have fallen on broken glass which caused the lacerations to her hands and arms. Theres a thread somewhere I think.

[Howard Brown]

Nothing monumental,but Van Onselen's theory of Silver/Lis as being Joe Isaacs( hence JTR ) includes Emma Smith as a possible victim.

This is partially based on the age of Silver and that Smith said one of her attackers was " around 19". On page 483 of Van Onselen's massive work, one finds out that indeed Silver had just turned 20.

One of the funny things I find about how witnesses describe their assailants...as well as other individuals...is this "specificness" to the individual in questions age. "19" rather than 20. "Around 23 or 24" rather than 25.

Could Smith have possibly known of Silver's age? Impossible to determine, I know...but again,there's that "around 19" as opposed to plain,old 20.

[Debra A]

Susan Ward wasnt a victim. Debs sterling research has shown her to have fallen on broken glass which caused the lacerations to her hands and arms. Theres a thread somewhere I think.

Cheers Monty!...It's going to take some filtering through isn't it?!! ;)

Susan Ward (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793)thread is here for anyone who missed it and is in the least bit interested :)


Debs

[Monty]

Youre too subtle for most of us. That or you wear Harrys cloak too often. Of course, the true test would be if the A-Z pick up on it. That and the Humphreys story.

[Nicola]

Hello,all.


I have always felt that JTR got up to much mayhem before he became a murderer.


I think he might have stalked women and also did some,I lack a better term,practice runs before he got going. Most likely,there were some women he went after but they sensed he was a nutter and didn't go off with him. Or others who did but managed to fight him off. I doubt these ladies,given their profession at the time,reported it to the police. If one of them had,maybe the police might have gotten a lead on JTR before he got going.

[Ryan_Miller]

George,

I was wondering what it is that makes you feel that Susan Ward is just as likely as Annie or Ada to be a Ripper victim? I feel that she is as likely a Ripper victim as anyone else who suffered a sexual assault while prostituting themself. I very well may be wrong, and I admit I am not as well versed on the topic of Susan Ward as some others are. I just do not see her as a possible Ripper victim and would like your stance on the subject.

[Monty]

George,

I was wondering what it is that makes you feel that Susan Ward is just as likely as Annie or Ada to be a Ripper victim? I feel that she is as likely a Ripper victim as anyone else who suffered a sexual assault while prostituting themself. I very well may be wrong, and I admit I am not as well versed on the topic of Susan Ward as some others are. I just do not see her as a possible Ripper victim and would like your stance on the subject.

Ryan,

I know this is direceted at Philip however I do suggest you follow the link Debs has kindly provided for us on this thread.

Infact, I shall add it on this post.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793

The simple fact is that Susan Ward was not the victim of anyone other than fate. She fell on a broken bottle and cut her arms.

Willments only suggested her because she....ah, why am I going through it it all? Its explained on the thread, to which Ive added a link. Just incase youve missed it.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793 http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793

...and for good luck http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=793

Monty
:)

[Debra A]

:laugh4: :bigcry: :amconfused: :wall:

I'll put it in me new book eh? ;)

[Monty]

And I'll put in in mine Debs.

Monty
:)

[George Hutchinson]

George,

I was wondering what it is that makes you feel that Susan Ward is just as likely as Annie or Ada to be a Ripper victim? I feel that she is as likely a Ripper victim as anyone else who suffered a sexual assault while prostituting themself. I very well may be wrong, and I admit I am not as well versed on the topic of Susan Ward as some others are. I just do not see her as a possible Ripper victim and would like your stance on the subject.

Ryan, it's hypothetical now so before Debra has a complete breakdown I'll give you a brief answer.

The story that Susan Ward apparently told was that she had taken a man for an immoral purpose to an unknown quiet-ish place off Commercial Street. He had then tried to trip her up and cut her throat. The attack on Annie was random stabbing (yet similar to Martha Tabram in that respect, who I believe WAS a Ripper victim) and the one on Ada just, for me, doesn't fit the MO. A basically respectable woman being woken by a knock at her own front door.

It's subjective but nearly everything in Ripperology is.

PHILIP

[Debra A]

Ryan, it's hypothetical now so before Debra has a complete breakdown I'll give you a brief answer.

The story that Susan Ward apparently told was that she had taken a man for an immoral purpose to an unknown quiet-ish place off Commercial Street. He had then tried to trip her up and cut her throat. The attack on Annie was random stabbing (yet similar to Martha Tabram in that respect, who I believe WAS a Ripper victim) and the one on Ada just, for me, doesn't fit the MO. A basically respectable woman being woken by a knock at her own front door.

It's subjective but nearly everything in Ripperology is.

PHILIP

Hi Philip,
I wasn't aware that Susan Ward told anybody anything.
The way I understand the story, and I could be wrong I admit, but Susan Ward's name was just plucked from the hospital records as the only women admitted to hospital with arm wounds, following the story of an attack on an unknown woman in the press.
Rob gives a very good description of the mix up on the highlighted thread I think.

[Monty]

Ryan, it's hypothetical now so before Debra has a complete breakdown I'll give you a brief answer.

Bit low that Philip.

Id have thought you of all people would have understood Debs frustration.

Monty
:)

[Rob Clack]

Ryan, it's hypothetical now so before Debra has a complete breakdown I'll give you a brief answer.


I'm a bit surprised at you for that comment Philip. It's not surprising Debs got a bit frustrated as she put a lot of work into clearing up the Susan Ward mystery.

Going by memory, a newspaper report mentions an attack off Commercial Street between Chapman and Stride murders but doesn't mention any name. It was Stephen Willment who found Susan Wards name in the London Hospital records and assumed it was (wrongly as we now know) her, but it's all on the Susan Ward thread for those who want to take a look.

Rob

[Uncle Jack]

The ones mentioned so far are interesting to look into, especially Annie Millwood. There are a couple others such as Malvina Haynes, who was atatcked the same day as Emma Smith. Then there is Emily Edith Smith, who in later years claimed a man took her to Whitechapel and tried to murder her and a woman named Murphy, who was attacked a few days after Mary Kelly's murder though I am unsire of the location. I'd say about 99.99% of researchers dismiss these women but they are interesting to look into none the less, especially Malvina and Emily Smith.

But I would say that, if there was ever gonna be a Ripper "survivor" it would be Millwood or the supposed unknown victim between the Chapman and Stride murders.

Best regards,

Adam

[George Hutchinson]

Monty, Rob - there was absolutely NO intention of having a pop at Debra and I still can't see how either of you can have read it as such. All I was saying was that she had done this work (which I confess I've not read yet) and seemed, on this thread, to be speaking into a void with comments still being made without reference to it. It was, if anything, in support. How on earth could either of you have taken it otherwise? I'm actually quite offended myself that you read it that way coming from me.

PHILIP

[Ben]

Hi all,

On the subject of Ada Wilson, it's worth keeping in mind that she may have placed a rose-tinted slant on the version of events to preserve her respectability. Her neighbour, Rose Bierman, witnessed her bringing home a strange man who subsequently attacked her, casting serious doubts on the original "robber" account. If Bierman's account is the correct one - and I suspect it is - then the MO is potentially quite compatible with later attacks.

Best regards,
Ben

[Monty]

Philip,

Firstly, and this is vitally important to make clear, I had no intention myself of offending you. For that I apologise.

Its just annoying to me to see someone, whose work has been quite exceptional in their field, be dismissed as seemingly insignificant by the phrase "before Debra has a complete breakdown". That to me shows a lack of respect, intentional or not.

Again, I value your own work and, just as importantly, our relationship. I did not mean to offend you, just as you did not intend to offend Debs. However thats the way I read it and as Debs is just as valuable to me as you are, I felt the want to express what I felt was an unfair comment. Just as I have done with you in the past and visa versa.

You are good stick Philip, a bloody good stick infact, your kindness toward me has been truely immense. And I hope you hold no ill feeling toward me for saying how I see it. If that be right or wrong.

Cheers
Monty
:)

PS Also, I will add, this is how myths are perpetuated.

[George Hutchinson]

Monty, that's fine but you still maintain that I was saying something I absolutely was not saying. If someone had put up a post confirming the authenticity of the DY image with a piece of evidence 'before Philip jumps in the Thames', there would - rightly - be no negative comment about it at all. You're right - this is how myths are perpetuated.

PHILIP

[Monty]

Philip,

I see your point Mate.

However confirmation was ignored and the implication was made that Debs was over reacting. Which is understandable on her part really considering the amount of research she has conducted which has been ignored.

Still, Ive made my point and the matter for me is closed. Again, I apologise if Ive upset you but I feel that that our relationship is open enough for us to communicate without the fear of offending intentionally.

Cheers

Monty
:)

[George Hutchinson]

...the implication was made that Debs was over reacting.

Monty - no it wasn't. That is what you decided I was saying. To say an implication was made is saying that I was personally inferring something without directly addressing it. I've already explained that your reaction was your misinterpretation of a supportive comment.

PHILIP

[Monty]

Philip,

That was my interpretation yes and it would seem Robs as well. Therefore it seems as if what you said wasnt all that clear.

However, as you have said, you have explained the comment and, again, I offer my apologies for my misinterpretation.

Cheers
Monty
:)

[Debra A]

Philip, I've only just had a chance to catch up on this thread and have to say, honestly, I also interpreted you 'breakdown' comment as an implication that I was overreacting and also that you still regarded Susan Ward as a possible early victim, despite the research that had been posted.

That Rob and Monty interpreted it that way too (and many thanks for the support Rob and Monty), without me saying anything, shows that your meaning was not entirely clear.

We should all just forget this and move on eh?

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Debra.

Yeah, that's fine. I absolutely was not saying that but I have to accept that's how you guys read it. As we've exchanged in PMs in the past, I hope you realise my stance and that I would always defer to your research above my own. I think I'm starting to understand what's been going on here, but I still honestly can't see how you all actually thought my comment was a negative one. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on its appearance.

The comment was made with the inferance that people not bothering to look at your thread but still making comments on the subject was infuriating for you, not that people were disagreeing!

PHILIP

[Pinkerton]

The ones mentioned so far are interesting to look into, especially Annie Millwood. There are a couple others such as Malvina Haynes, who was atatcked the same day as Emma Smith. Then there is Emily Edith Smith, who in later years claimed a man took her to Whitechapel and tried to murder her and a woman named Murphy, who was attacked a few days after Mary Kelly's murder though I am unsire of the location. I'd say about 99.99% of researchers dismiss these women but they are interesting to look into none the less, especially Malvina and Emily Smith.

But I would say that, if there was ever gonna be a Ripper "survivor" it would be Millwood or the supposed unknown victim between the Chapman and Stride murders.

Best regards,

Adam

Hi Adam. Actually Emily Edith Smith's attack took place in November of 1892. I have three articles saved about it. The supposed attack took place in Whitechapel off of Sutton Street in a passage called "Station-place".

A recent thread where the attack is discussed can be found here (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1463). It includes a map of the location.

I'm not familiar with a story where Emily Edith Smith mentions being with another woman named "Murphy" during the attack. Do you know where you heard this?

[Uncle Jack]

Hi Adam. Actually Emily Edith Smith's attack took place in November of 1892. I have three articles saved about it. The supposed attack took place in Whitechapel off of Sutton Street in a passage called "Station-place".

A recent thread where the attack is discussed can be found here (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1463). It includes a map of the location.

I'm not familiar with a story where Emily Edith Smith mentions being with another woman named "Murphy" during the attack. Do you know where you heard this?

Hi there Pinkerton. With my above post, I should have put a , for continuity sake. Lol. My faulty posting as usual :laugh4: When I wrote about a woman named Murphy, I was referring to a different attack where the woman (Murphy) was out getting some supper and was slightly stabbed by a man. An account of the incident appeared in the Croydon Times on Saturday November 17 1888.

“Jack the Ripper” is said to have been about Brighton-Road last Monday night, but the only foundation for this suggestion is that a young woman named Murphy was slightly stabbed when going for her supper along the Brighton-Road. The curious part of the thing is that, although she knew her assailant had caught her round her waist, she had no idea till an hour afterwards that she had been stabbed or wounded in any way.

It is very unlikely to have any connection to the Ripper in anyway but it just good to mention in regards that it happened so soon after MJK and was referred to JTR by the press.

Sorry for the confusion Pinkerton concerning Emily Smith! Lol

Best regards,

Adam

[Shelley]

Annie Millwood and probably Ada Wilson, Ada's attacker could be matched to the description of Blotchy with Mary Kelly ( MJK) and Lawendes description of a man seen with Eddowes.