MJK's brother

[Pinkerton]

This question has probably been asked before but it doesn't appear to have been since the last server crash, so here goes.

Has anyone tried to look through the listing of soldiers in the 2nd battalion Scots guard in the relevant period when MJK's brother was supposedly enlisted? Is this information even available? Thanks.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pinkerton,

According to Joseph Barnett, Mary Kelly told him that one of her six brothers, Henry [nicknamed Johnto], was a member of the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards.

In his 9th November witness statement Barnett said, "I believe the regiment is now in Ireland."

As you will see from the following deployment lists, neither the 1st or 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was in Ireland in 1888.

Deployment—2nd Battalion Scots Guards

1831 April—2nd Battalion, Scots Fusilier Guards: London
1861 December—at sea (embarked at Southampton) ship: Parana
1862 January—New Brunswick: St. John
1862 February—Canada: Montreal (Victoria Barracks)
1864 —at sea
1864 October—England
1877 April—2nd Battalion, Scots Guards
1881 London: Chelsea
1883 London: Wellington Barracks
1885 Sudan (Suakin expedition)
1885 October—London
1889 London: Chelsea
1891 London: Wellington Barracks
1893 London: Tower
1895 Ireland: Dublin

Deployment—1st Battalion Scots Guards

1881 Ireland: Dublin
1882 Egypt
1884 London: Chelsea
1885 London: Wellington Barracks
1892 London: Chelsea
1896 London: Wellington Barracks
1897 Ireland: Dublin

Henry [Johnto] Kelly would have been stationed in London in 1888 and easy enough to find, but the police don't appear to have bothered looking for him.

Perhaps because brother Henry was another MJK fiction?

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pinkerton,

It's a fine old kettle of fish when you get bum information from a regimental historian. Honestly, who can you trust these days?

Further digging turned this up from The Star, 12th November 1888—

"The authorities have been making inquiries concerning the soldier who, according to Barnett, was in the second battalion of the Scots Guards. That regiment is now in Dublin, and it is understood that inquiries will be immediately prosecuted there."

And these two items from The Times.

28th August 1888—



7th September 1888—



So it seems that Joseph Barnett was right. In November 1888 Henry [Johnto] Kelly was in Dublin.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

So it seems that Joseph Barnett was right. In November 1888 Henry [Johnto] Kelly was in Dublin.

Interesting snippet, Simon. That might imply that "Marie Jeannette" was in touch with her brother up until September and knew that he'd departed for Ireland, passing on the fact to Joe Barnett. How else was he to have known that? (Unless he happened to remember what the Times had printed some two months earlier - a most unlikely idea.)

[George Hutchinson]

I took a tour tonight and one of the men on it, totally straight up, said to me he believed he might be related to MJK as there was a family story that there was some direct family lineage to 'the last victim of Jack the Ripper'. I didn't really enjoy telling him that she probably never had children and we have no idea if the name we know her by was her name at all.

PHILIP

[John Bennett]

I took a tour tonight and one of the men on it, totally straight up, said to me he believed he might be related to MJK as there was a family story that there was some direct family lineage to 'the last victim of Jack the Ripper'. I didn't really enjoy telling him that she probably never had children and we have no idea if the name we know her by was her name at all.

PHILIP

Ulp!! It's always a bit awkward when you get tricky enquiries...

[Pinkerton]

This article makes it sound as if her brother DID successfully visit MJK at least once, and he was the only family member who did so, though her father attempted to. According to Barnett MJK lived in the west side at one time. This would have been close to the time that her brother could have theoretically (if she didn't make the who thing up) been stationed in Chelsea. Could they have had contact then? This article is from Lloyd's Weekly, dated November 11th.

So does anyone know if it is possible to get a list of the soldiers who served in this battalion in 1888? British archives? Anyone? I'm frankly surprised that Chris Scott hasn't already given us the list, and narrowed the list down by soldiers from Limerick or Wales, along with a list of all their siblings, their dates of birth, and their favorite breakfast cereals!

[Bailey]

Hey Philip

Out of interest, since I assume you'd hear that sort of thing a fair bit, how do you decide whether to blow it off versus taking a chance the person might actually have something to their story? This one may be a bit of an obvious dud, but I guess it's possible you could actually find some sort of valid family link this way.

B.

[Hellrider]

if Barnett did not remeber the name of the man Mary was supposedly married to, where does "Davis" or "Davies" come from then?

concerning Simon's curious find: up till now, I always regarded the "brother issue" doubtfully because I thought it was a myth like so many others in the case. If the regiment however was deployed to Dublin contrary to what the deployment list said, I tend to think that brother might have existed because, as Sam said, it's most likely Barnett learned of this fact via Mary. Why would Mary know of the whereabouts of a regiment if she had no personal connection to it?

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Bailey. I always ask them questions as far as I can. I've taken people on tours before who have connections to major murder cases, but usually in the US in modern times (the brother of one of Leonard Lake's victims, a mortician who saw Jeffrey Dahmer's corpse...)

I've not been aware of anyone before this guy claiming a link to JTR in any way. You ask the questions and when you get an answer that suggests all they know is what they just told you (as in this case) you decide it's a non-starter. Of course, there is that 0.1% chance that the family story was true but how on earth would we discover anything of value when the guy telling me only knows he was told the family had a connection when he was a child?

Cheers
PHILIP

[Hellrider]

Quite sure this has also been asked before, but I don't remember reading anything about it, so please forgive my laziness...Chris or anybody else, is there any soldier remotely resembling "Henry Kelly" by either name or vita (alleged place of birth etc.)

[Graham]

Couple of observations:

1] that newspaper article recounting the statement of Joe Barnett seems brimful of detail which suggests to me either that (a) Joe had an incredible memory; or (b) he made a lot of it up; or (c) MJK had constructed a 'legend' around herself. However, as it now seems that Johnto's regiment really was in Ireland, I am wondering if (a) above might be the real deal. Top points to Simon Wood, I'd say!

2] there do be an old legend/myth that MJK had a daughter, who eventually ended up living in Bristol until her death in 1928 or thereabouts. Somewhere in the depths of the A-Z there is more information about this, but I can't find it. I've asked before on this and the old threads if anyone has any further knowledge of this legend, but it appears no-one has. Yet it has to have an origin somewhere. So where did it originate?

Philip, what was your gut-feeling about this guy on your tour? Did you ask for his contact-details, or is that a no-no?

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

In addition, of course, "Johnto" is such a bizarre diminutive that it also has a certain ring of truth. I can't quite swallow the idea, as has been suggested, that Barnett said "His name was John, too" and that the latter two syllables became conflated into "Johnto". "Johnto", however it might be spelled, was almost certainly pronounced to rhyme with "pronto".

[Maggyann]

Could it be Jonty or perhaps John Thomas shortened as a sort of family nickname?

[Sam Flynn]

Could it be Jonty or perhaps John Thomas shortened as a sort of family nickname?

Jonty is a bit upper-class, Maggy, but I really like the idea of "John Thomas" being boiled down to "Johntho" (the "h", in "Thomas", is of course silent). Can't say I recall that being suggested before and, even if it has been, it's still a brilliant suggestion you've made there. Thanks!

If your intuition is correct, then we're left with the possibility of a "John Thomas Kelly" - or even "Mary Thomas" (if "Thomas" was her brother's surname, rather than his middle name). Methinks another fruitless Ancestry.com search is about to commence