Sexual Activity / Rape...?

[Uncle Jack]

Even though the medical reports at the time suggested that the victims had not been raped or seen any sexual activity at the time, I personally think they may have been raped based purely on my opinion of what the killer was like and how they went about the murders. I believe they were sexually/rape based murders and that the killer needed to seek sexual satisfaction during the killings. Does anyone else share the opinion that Jack raped the victims?

Kind regards,

ADAM

[sdreid]

Hi Adam,

You could be right but in some of these psychos the act of killing actually produces a spontaneous orgasm without any sort of genital contact as I understand it. That doesn't mean they couldn't have more orgasms either with or without contact so all could be true.

[Uncle Jack]

I have even toyed with the idea of Jack being a necrophile but given the time it took to commit the murders, ie, Eddowes appears to have been killed within a few minutes, it seems unlikely.

[Ms. Fade]

Go gently with me, I'm a newbie...

I agree with you that these were almost certainly sexually based murders, but that need not mean that rape is involved. I think we're dealing with a man of 'deviant' sexuality, who doesn't necessarily get off on penetrative sex (forced or consensual), or who is not actually capable of penetrative sex - I think it was the mutilation that got him off, which is why there was no evidence of rape.

I am sure others will have different opinions!

[Celesta]

Hi Ms. Fade and Stan,

I concur that JTR got his his satisfaction from the mutilations, also.

Ms. Fade,

Welcome to the Casebook. That was a nice first post. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Best,

Cel

[Uncle Jack]

Maybe the taken of certain things, like the uterus, the kidney etc, was taken for the purpose of masturbation. Many serial killers have taken objects and used them for sexual satisfaction. It's a theory I will have to toy with a bit more.

Regards,

Adam

[Ms. Fade]

Thankyou Celesta!

Uncle Jack - you may well be right there, the body parts could well have been taken as 'souvenirs'.

Ms.F

[Mitch Rowe]

The worst part is we dont know for sure so we are always going to have to consider non sexual motives. Even though it seems unlikely.

[DarkPassenger]

There would have been non sexual activity - he got all the sexual pleasure he needed from the killing.

Have you learned nothing about sexual serial killers? ;)

[thewastelandr]

There would have been non sexual activity - he got all the sexual pleasure he needed from the killing.

Have you learned nothing about sexual serial killers? ;)

I would have to agree. Perhaps it wasn't even sexual at all - perhaps he was just deranged. To my mind, a sane person could not have committed murders such as those attributed to him. And to a deranged individual, it would be hard to say whether his motives were or were not sexual.

What does everyone else think?

[Honor Beckett]

Hello all (another newbie here)--
I believe Mitch has the only definite answer we shall ever have, and that is that there is no answer. Certainly these killings give the appearance of being sexually motivated, though I know this is a hotly contested point. All I can be confident of is that the mutilations were the focal point (excepting Stride, if one includes her in the canon)--the murders themselves appear to be merely a means to an end.
And I wonder if Jack himself could have articulated his motives, whether sexual or otherwise--does a killer of this stripe have the insight to do so?

Cheers!
--Honor

[DarkPassenger]

Using value-laden logic and saying that "no sane man could have done this" passes off the crimes as the random work of a madman and ignores the established fact that "normal" people DO do these things quite a lot! And it's caused not by the individual being sick, but the social order being sick.

[thewastelandr]

DarkPassenger,

I do agree with you in what you said about the social order being sick, but what I meant by "no sane man" was that there was no apparent motive and that the nature of the killings (mutilations, on the street, etc.) point to a very disturbed individual. I would like to think that no one in their right mind would be able to commit such crimes.

[DarkPassenger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791278.stm

This counters the idea that sane people cannot commit violent sadistic acts.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hello all (another newbie here)--
I believe Mitch has the only definite answer we shall ever have, and that is that there is no answer. Certainly these killings give the appearance of being sexually motivated, though I know this is a hotly contested point. All I can be confident of is that the mutilations were the focal point (excepting Stride, if one includes her in the canon)--the murders themselves appear to be merely a means to an end.
And I wonder if Jack himself could have articulated his motives, whether sexual or otherwise--does a killer of this stripe have the insight to do so?

Cheers!
--Honor

We really dont know what kind of killer JTR was. He wasnt caught so there is no definate motive or much of any clues.

I only call JTR a male because I can find no reason for Annie to have gone into the back yard with a woman. Now.. If I ever find out the women had a motive to go into back yards together in the early morning hours I may lower my gaurd on the Male thing. But still its going to take an unusually strong female to do what JTR did. The chances are slim to none that JTR was female.

More likely than not JTR planned to kill and set out to kill.

[Mitch Rowe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791278.stm

This counters the idea that sane people cannot commit violent sadistic acts.

Oh..Hell..Christie does that for us. Haigh does that for us too. If thats not enough include Crippen and the theory is forever blown to pieces.

[thewastelandr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7791278.stm

This counters the idea that sane people cannot commit violent sadistic acts.
You are right, but it seems to be different with actually inflicting damage with one's own hands than by pushing a button or having some other kind of mediator. A lot of people wouldn't have qualms about dropping a bomb on an enemy city, but would have serious problems skewering women and children themselves. Flashback to Hiroshima...

I guess my thought is that I would never be able to perform the mutilations JTR did on his victims. Sure, I would kill someone if I had to, but to go to that length on the mutilations? Seems to me there has to be something off in that killer's mind.

[DarkPassenger]

You are right, but it seems to be different with actually inflicting damage with one's own hands than by pushing a button or having some other kind of mediator. A lot of people wouldn't have qualms about dropping a bomb on an enemy city, but would have serious problems skewering women and children themselves. Flashback to Hiroshima...

I guess my thought is that I would never be able to perform the mutilations JTR did on his victims. Sure, I would kill someone if I had to, but to go to that length on the mutilations? Seems to me there has to be something off in that killer's mind.

If you trained to be a butcher, maybe you would find such mutilations easier to deal with? It's all a matter of perspective.

[thewastelandr]

I suppose you are right. My opinion of humankind just dropped a little.

[KatBradshaw]

Am I right in thinking that its was written that there were no signs of sexual contact?

If that is so then I have always been confused by it. The trade of these women suggest that it was more likley to find signs of 'contact'. The comment that one of the victims had earned her money but spent it on gin seems to confirm this. So how would they be able to distinguish between signs of previous contact and that of the killer??

[Chava]

I think--and have thought for ages--that the Ripper couldn't get it up and that his knife was his surrogate for a penis. Whatever satisfaction he got, I believe he got it through that knife.

However, as has been pointed out up-thread, these women were prostitutes and so would have had sexual congress as part of their night's work. So I'm not sure why no evidence of this was found. Unless it was deemed to be too old to be of any use.

[Mitch Rowe]

Am I right in thinking that its was written that there were no signs of sexual contact?

If that is so then I have always been confused by it. The trade of these women suggest that it was more likley to find signs of 'contact'. The comment that one of the victims had earned her money but spent it on gin seems to confirm this. So how would they be able to distinguish between signs of previous contact and that of the killer??

There really was no forensic ability back then. The docs made a visual exam and that was it. So we dont really know much.

However... The time constraints of these murders suggest JTR was only able to kill and perform the mutilations before hightailing it out of there.

[Barnaby]

The time constraints would not have been an issue with Mary Kelly.

[DarkPassenger]

I think--and have thought for ages--that the Ripper couldn't get it up and that his knife was his surrogate for a penis. Whatever satisfaction he got, I believe he got it through that knife.

However, as has been pointed out up-thread, these women were prostitutes and so would have had sexual congress as part of their night's work. So I'm not sure why no evidence of this was found. Unless it was deemed to be too old to be of any use.

One thing you have to remember is that he doesn't consciously replace his penis with a knife - it's all subconscious. He does not think to himself, "I'm gonna stab that bitch because my dick doesn't work," he just feels he need to violate her body with a knife. Simple. The deeper psychological reasons are hidden from him.

[Sam Flynn]

The deeper psychological reasons are hidden from him....would that they were permanently hidden to us as well! That 19th century cigar-sucking cocaine addict has a lot to answer for.

[caz]

Hi All,

I wonder if females who kill strangers for no apparent reason are so rare because it has something to do with the primitive hunter/gatherer instinct. As society requires fewer and fewer of its males to hunt and gather in the raw, physical sense, maybe a tiny minority of the species fails to adapt, stifle or control this powerful instinct, and it spills out in twisted and destructive ways, with variations on the same primitive theme, such as rape, pillage and territory-marking.

If there's a fine line between robbing and ripping, I can see how the male sex drive might get in on the act as a by-product, if not a conscious motivating factor.

Was Whitechapel Jack's gym, and each victim his punch bag?

Love,

Caz
X

[Christine1932]

I would have to agree. Perhaps it wasn't even sexual at all - perhaps he was just deranged. To my mind, a sane person could not have committed murders such as those attributed to him. And to a deranged individual, it would be hard to say whether his motives were or were not sexual.

What does everyone else think?
Well, I don´t believe JTR or most serial killers are psychotic, only sleazy perverts. Horror/exploitation industry is full of them, thinking crap they spew. It´s not mental illness, they just have a cesspool in the head.

[quasar]

Some very good points here,

Christine1932,
Agree totally with your statement. Andrei Chikatilo is a quintasential example of this. He was declared sane and responsible for his actions prior to his showcaes trial.He wasnt mentally ill, just a sleezy pervert who would try anything to have a good orgasm. There was nothing special about him at all. Just a common middle-aged pervert.Q

[Barnaby]

There is a difference between mental illness and legal definitions of "insane". Most serial killers (indeed the majority of the male prison population) can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. They may also suffer from anxiety disorders, depression, dissociative disorders, schizophrenia, etc. There could be physical or psychological problems related to sex, including the paraphilias (sadism, masochism, fetishes, etc). This isn't to say that these people don't appear "normal" on the surface. Most of them also are quite sane in the sense of knowing right from wrong. But to ignore the psychology behind their actions and just to label them as "perverted" does not get us very far in terms of understanding. Once a clear diagnosis is made, we can begin to examine the environmental and genetic factors that contribute to it. In a very real way, serial killers are not normal. Most people do not routinely kill other people. It would be wise to figure out what makes these people tick. I suspect that if you ask Jack (or similar people), you would get a very unsatisfying answer as to why he kills, such as "because it gets me off." Determining how torture and murder acquire these properties brings us closer to an explanation of their behavior.

[Barnaby]

Some very good points here,

Christine1932,
Agree totally with your statement. Andrei Chikatilo is a quintasential example of this. He was declared sane and responsible for his actions prior to his showcaes trial.He wasnt mentally ill, just a sleezy pervert who would try anything to have a good orgasm. There was nothing special about him at all. Just a common middle-aged pervert.Q

Contrary to popular belief, the VAST majority of middle-aged perverts are NOT serial killers. The VAST majority of serial killers select victims of one sex. Chikatilo is a fascinating, fairly unique case. There is plenty special about him in that sense.

[The Good Michael]

I wonder if females who kill strangers for no apparent reason are so rare because it has something to do with the primitive hunter/gatherer instinct. As society requires fewer and fewer of its males to hunt and gather in the raw, physical sense, maybe a tiny minority of the species fails to adapt, stifle or control this powerful instinct, and it spills out in twisted and destructive ways, with variations on the same primitive theme, such as rape, pillage and territory-marking.



I would say this is correct. Civilization is a relatively recent thing and not in man's nature in my opinion. Nomadism and hunting and gathering seem to be infinitely more satisfying things than the accumulation of objects and wealth that must be stored and guarded.
The finer things in life are those items that deflect us from our true nature, and make us think we are satisfied with the rat race of the industrial world. I'm not fooled by all the glitz. Some people cannot live within the rules of modern societies, but may be able to do well if they are occupied with the rigors of being on the move, and are living the less complex lifestyle of nomads.

Cheers

Mike

[Christine1932]

Some very good points here,

Christine1932,
Agree totally with your statement. Andrei Chikatilo is a quintasential example of this. He was declared sane and responsible for his actions prior to his showcaes trial.He wasnt mentally ill, just a sleezy pervert who would try anything to have a good orgasm. There was nothing special about him at all.

:2thumbsup:

[Pettifogger]

In my opinion, sex & lust were not the operational mantra of JtR. I don't think he sought sexual contact with the victims. I'd love to know what he was seeing and hearing inside his mind. :curtain:

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Pettifogger!

Or maybe JtR was driven by his inability in sexual matters?!

All the best
Jukka

[Pettifogger]

I tend to believe he operated under a functional psychosis.


He wasn't merely killing women or saw them as inanimate objects...they were symbols of something to him. Call it warped graffiti if you will. :scratchchin:

[John Wheat]

I suppose he may have raped some of the victims after death he certainly had time to rape Mary Jane Kelly.

[Pettifogger]

It isn't impossible but his mutilations and organ removals seem to be more crucial to JtR versus sex.

I've never really bought into the sexual homicide/serial murder aspect of the murders. I think that JtR was psychotic and really playing to the beat of a different drummer. :drummer:

[John Wheat]

Your right on the point about the mutilations being the key for Jack although to be honest in all probability Jack got sexual satisfaction from the mutilations.

[Pettifogger]

A psychotic isn't necessarily driven by sexual impulses. He could be merely attempting to silence the demons (visual & oral) in his mind.