Could Tumblety Have Known Druitt?

[Robert]

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-5283.html as retrieved on 12 Feb 2008 22:44:07 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
This cached page may reference images which are no longer available. Click here for the cached text only.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk


Google is neither affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted: could tumblety have known druitt
These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: archive


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis > Could Tumblety have known Druitt?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PDAView Full Version : Could Tumblety have known Druitt?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee22nd December 2007, 08:23 PM
Macnaughten

Hi all,

Well, round two. The last time I started a thread on this topic, it was ignored. If it was not for my friend Malta Joe the thread probably whould have been a one hit wonder. However I just cant shake the thought from my thick head. Could Tumblety have known Druitt.

Okay, I know it sounds a little far fetched but this is my train of thought. I am assuming that the Detectives who worked the case would not throw names out in connection with the Ripper murders if they knew who the Killer actually was. Abberline offers Chapman, Swanson put forth Kosminski Macnaughten prefers Druitt and Littlechild names Tumblety.This means that they had know convincing prove against anyone.

Obviously who ever Anderson and Swansons witness was, failed to convince Abberline and Macnaughten and I am assuming that nobody put much stock in Abberline's idea about Chapman but, here is were I start to wonder.

Macnaughten claimed to have recieved private information that he was prepared to believe that Druitt was the ripper and Druitt's own family believed him to be the Killer. I believe that any information that Macnaughten had gained about the Ripper murders came from Monroe. If Macnaughten thought that Druitt was the Ripper then Monroe must have thought Druitt to be the killer.

Movies like From Hell and Jack the Ripper minnie series always have Abberline in charge of the investigation and Abberline involved in the cover-up. I doubt that Abberline had the power to keep information away from the brass and I doubt if Anderson had the that type of power. Anderson must have told Monroe about Kosminski, Macnaughten names him along with Druitt and Ostrog but could Monroe keep private information that he recieved from the Detectives? I am not an expert on police protical. However I think it is possible that Monroe had information that kept from Abberline and Anderson that he later shared with Macnaughten.

I have read that Monroe told his son that the Ripper Murders was a political "Hot potato" If true, then that statement,combined with the calim that Douglaus Browne made about seeing documents that Macnaughten had connected the Ripper with the leader of an assasination plot made me wonder could the private information had something to do with the plot against Belfour?

I believe that it Macnaughten claim to have connected Jack the ripper with such a plot then he had connected Druitt in some way. Monroe must have been aware of Druitt's involvment, the "Hot potato".

I would imagine that Littlechild would have been involved with any investigation involving a plot against Belfour. Would he have known of any potential Ripper involvement? Would Monroe had shared is private information with Littlechild? It is interesting that Littlechild names Tumblety as a likely suspect. If Monroe shared his information with him why would he name Tumblety? Maybe Monroe's information did not convince him or maybe Druitt had some how been connected with Tumblety. Tumblety was a Fenian and may have been involved is such a plot.

I wonder, maybe The Detectives who followed Tumblety to America were looking for another suspect. Maybe the were looking for Druitt.

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dougie4th January 2008, 07:56 PM
was druitt ever in america? my informant says yes.........i say not to my knowledge( which dont stretch very far ,but thats irrelevant )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

cd4th January 2008, 08:08 PM
Hi Brad,

Just a note in passing --two other Scotland Yard detective, Godfrey and Neil apparently shared Abberline's views on Chapman. This seems to get little mention for some reason.

c.d.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee5th January 2008, 09:11 PM
Hi,

cd,

I did not know about the two other Detectives that shared Abberline's suspicion of Chapman. Chapman is a viable suspect and it would be nice if the Ripper had ended up getting hung. I never put much stock in the idea that a killer would not change his method of killing. Chapman could not mutilate his wives. He would have been caught. He obviously wanted their deaths to look like illness.

Abberline's believe that the Ripper most likely fled to America is Interesting and his suggestion of two men working together, not out of the question. The interesting story about the American seeking human organs makes me think. Abberline had some interesting thoughts.

Dougie, thanks for your reply. I had feared that this thread would go into the forgotten pile.

Maybe I should make clear what I am asking. I am not asking if any one thinks Tumblety and Druitt were responsible for the murders, although I feel it is possible, I am asking could they have known eachother?

If Douglas Browne did see a document that Macnaughten had connected the Ripper with the leader of an assasination plot, then I feel he must have connected Druitt with such a person or plot. Could such a plot been the political "hot potato" that Monro mentioned?

Littlechild names Tumblety as a likely suspect. Tumblety, a Fenian, may very well have been involved in a plot to kill Balfour. Could Druitt have been connected to Tumblety and in turn connected to the plot against Balfour?

It is interesting that Littlechild claims to have never heard of a Dr. D in connection with the murders. Dr. D is obviously Druitt, who Macnaughten refers to as a Doctor. Littlechild would have been aware of any Ripper suspect that had been connected with an assasination plot or a person involved in such a plot against Balfour.

Any thoughts?

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rosey O'Ryan5th January 2008, 09:52 PM
Hi Brad,
Tumblety certainly had his social circle in Britain like in the good ol' USA, but Druitt was not a suitable candidate for such an august social circle we associate with Druitt! Earl of Crawford and Balcarres, etc., and who knows?
Rosey :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aspallek5th January 2008, 10:06 PM
Hi Brad. Sorry I missed your "round one" on this topic.

This is an area that I think deserves further looking into. There is no evidence that Druitt knew Tumblety or had ever met him. Of course, this does not rule out a connection, either. Incidently, someone asked whether Druitt has ever been to America. No evidence either way but it seems unlikely given his teaching and cricketing activities, which would leave little time for such travel.

Where I think we need to look is at the possibility that Macnaughten was confusing some identities, or that he received information that was already confused. His description of Druitt contains some elements that are accurate and some that are off the mark. Could he have confused Druitt with Tumblety? He calls Druitt a doctor, Tumblety was a quack doctor. He says that the Ripper committed suicide right after the last murder whereas Druitt's suicide was weeks later. Tumblety, on the other hand, did "disappear" very shortly after the last murder. There just may have been some confused data there.

I also think there is reason to believe that George Simms and John Littlechild were talking past one another in their correspondence. Simms is apparently talking about Druitt (and I believe Simms knows Druitt's name) while Littlechild has Tumblety in mind as the "doctor suspect." It is in the Littlechild letter that this confusion comes to light.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn5th January 2008, 11:45 PM
Hi Andy,
Seriously I dont think Macnaghten was "that" confused as to think he was talking about Tumblety when he was referring to Druitt.Macnaghten is adfter all most deferential about Druitt"s family-"he was said to be a doctor and of good family"/---atanother time he infers he would have revealed more---but for his family etc.

However,I too have wondered whether they may have bumped into each other in Whitechapel for example.I suspect it had its gay haunts which may have attracted both men----even had both men chasing after the same gay prostitute for example,possibly being "blackmailed" by the same "Rent boy[s]"-the possibilities are there.It didnt have to be that they met on any wider social circuit.

As far as politics went Druitt comes over as something of a liberal in his Oxford debates.Refreshingly un-Victorian in fact,even, it must be admitted in his defence of women and their issues.Even in his final court case there was his defence of a woman accused of murdering her infant and if I remember right he got her off the charge.He challenged notions of Bismark"s idea of "state" etc
But ofcourse this was when he was a very young man and by his late twenties his views may have altered,as well as possibly his state of mind.
Best
Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aspallek6th January 2008, 12:15 AM
Hi Nats,

I didn't mean to imply that Macnaghten was really thinking about Tumblety when he wrote about Druitt. I only meant that some confusion may have existed that caused some of Tumblety's details to seep into the info on Druitt, resulting in a conflated suspect. This may have happened before the details were related to Macnaghten. I admit that it is not likely.

Druitt's family seems pretty straight-laced so I doubt that Montague was liberal in his political leanings. I don't think you can go by the university debates. The topics may even have been assigned ones, as they often are.

We do know something about the political leanings of Druitt's friend Lonsdale as his father-in-law is found arguing against Irish home rule from Wimborne. The father-in-law was also posted to Ireland while in the military to guard against uprising and that is why Lonsdale's wife was born there. Of course, this doesn't really say anything much about Druitt's potential views.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn6th January 2008, 12:57 AM
Hi Andy,
Yes ofcourse you may be right .However,if Druitt was a gay man, a schoolteacher and barrister he may have met up with a good deal of
prejudice in his young life one way or another which may have isolated him from his family somewhat.His father left him very little money after all.
Additionally,the American psychologist Eric Berne firmly believed that nothing really happens by accident.He would therefore have said that Druitt argued the case for Freedom of Dress for Women or on the dangerous path taken by the German Chancellor Bismark on the state etc to have been "with intent" or "to have been chosen in some way"........you say nothing of the possibility of the pair meeting as gays or via rent boys ?
Best
N

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee6th January 2008, 09:46 PM
Where I think we need to look is at the possibility that Macnaughten was confusing some identities, or that he received information that was already confused. His description of Druitt contains some elements that are accurate and some that are off the mark. Could he have confused Druitt with Tumblety? He calls Druitt a doctor, Tumblety was a quack doctor. He says that the Ripper committed suicide right after the last murder whereas Druitt's suicide was weeks later. Tumblety, on the other hand, did "disappear" very shortly after the last murder. There just may have been some confused data there.

Hi aspallek,

I also wondered if Macnaughten had confused Druitt with Tumblety. I wondered if the two had been connected, in a document, and Macnaughten had scrampled the descriptions.

Hi Natalie,

I too believe that London had it's gay haunts and probably a secret underground gay community. In Florida gay men know what beach to go too. What clubs to go too. What parks to go too. I could not tell you any of the locations but they do exist. I feel the gay community would have been more secretive and a much tighter circle in 1888. I am not ready to claim Druitt and Tumblety were gay lovers but they could have met through the gay community.

The plot against Balfour raises some interesting questions. I wonder, was there a plot against Balfour? Was Druitt political and could he have been involved in such a plot? could Tumblety been involved with such a plot? Could the Ripper's connection with such a plot been Monro's "hot potato"?

If Douglas Browne is correct and Macnaughten had seen documents that connected Jack the Ripper with the leader of an assasination attempt of Mr. Balfour then I believe he must have seen documents that connected Druitt with such a plot or person involved with such a plot. Could Tumblety have been that person? If not, then who could that person have been? Who would have benifited from Balfour's assasination?

I do not know why I am going down this path. I cant shake the feeling that Tumblety and Druitt may have known eachother. I have no evidence, it is just a feeling.

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn6th January 2008, 11:45 PM
Hi Brad,
I think its possible these two men knew each other through the London gay scene, that they may even have cruised in the same parks or clubs, whatever.Maybe. But it doesnt bring us nearer to this alleged Balfour plot.And even if it did, how would that connect Tumblety and Druitt to the Whitechapel murders?
The only thing I can think of is that they may have been involved in some way and may have chickened out of this alleged plot to assassinate Balfour .Therefore the commencement of the slaughters of the Whitechapel women were a warning to one or both men "get on with it or else"! In other words they would otherwise be "set up" for the series of capital crimes. After all Tumblety WAS accused of being The Ripper,in 1888,by The American Press.What made them accuse him? And since Littlechild suspected him of being the Ripper----who tipped him off?
Then we have Macnaghten suggesting Druitt was The Ripper----so who actuallly tipped Macnaghten off? Why single out Druitt ? Why did Druitt commit suicide ------?
Seriously though, these two men,both gay men probably ,were suspected of being the Ripper by two senior contemporary policemen .Who gave them such information?
Best
Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dougie7th January 2008, 06:15 AM
i think thats a bit of an assumption that BOTH men were gay .seems plain tumblety was..but wheres the evidence that druitt was gay? or even probabley gay?there isnt any,unless he was sacked for interfering with boys at the school,which a possibility (alongside several others) which has never been shown to be anything other than guesswork. i mean maybe macnaughton was gay and knew both of them.i find it impossible to believe that macnaughton didnt know who his suspect really was....realistic connections? or plain simple coincidences?....and why would druitt ,of himself, be a hot political potato?.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aspallek7th January 2008, 08:45 AM
There is no evidence whatsoever that Druitt was homosexual. The only reason it has ever been suggested is Macnaghten's comment that he was "sexually insane." If the phrase "sexually insane" was an allusion to homosexuality in the VP, it was a rare one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plang7th January 2008, 10:00 AM
Myself, I prefer a natural woman with a natural bush. It is a shame that the young women of today 'think' they need to shave in order to be attractive.
Does this offer any insight as to the sexual orientation of Jack?

Plang

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

baron7th January 2008, 10:17 AM
Andy,

The Druitt as homosexual belief stems from his dismissal as a teacher. I don't think untoward behavior with the students would be something that would allow him to stay on until the end of term. Yet, you know this already.

I believe that homosexuality in the Victorian age was acceptable enough that there were many avenues in that direction to pursue. I doubt that Druitt, if he was gay, would be found at the same haunts as Tumblety. There were plenty of outlets, I should think, without a couple of blokes having to visit the East Side. In fact, I would think the East Side would be an area that most gentlemen would want to avoid, homosexual, or otherwise.

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee7th January 2008, 07:03 PM
Hi all,

If Macnaughten had connected the Ripper with a leader of an assasination plot against Balfour, I would assume, since Macnaughten believed Druitt to have been the Ripper, that he connected Druitt with such a person or plot. Was Druitt Political and would he have been involved in such a plot? Could Druitt have known someone who was involved in such a plot and who could that person have been, Tumblety?

Littlechild would have been aware of any assasination plot against Balfour. He names Tumblety as a likely Ripper suspect. Any documents that Macnaughten had seen concerning the Balfour assasination Littlerchild would have seen.

I am assuming that Druitt's name appeared in the document or someone that Druitt associated with name appeared. I think it is possible that Littlechild may not have been fully briefed about Druitt. However he may have become aware of the police suspicions of Tumblety and Tumblety's record.

Yep, I know, this is all conjecture no prove, just like a Columbo episode except I do not have a last second confesion to wrap the case up neatly. It seems to me, unless Macnaughten later changed his views on who Jack the Ripper was, that Druitt must have been connected with a plot or a person involved in such plot. The fact that Littlechild names Tumblety a likely Ripper canidate and He seems to know alot about his behavior makes me believe that Tumblety was that person.

Littlechild writes that Tumblety was believed to have committed suicide. It seems to me that Littlechild may have gotten some facts mixed up, just like Macnaughten, concerning Druitt and Tumblety. He may have been briefed about the two men around the same time due to some connection and he may have gotten them confused. I know, no prove. However if the Balfour assasination attempt was real then Druitt must have been connected in some way and Littlechild would have been briefed.

Your friend,

Brad

[Robert]

8th January 2008, 02:00 AM
All I am trying to do here Andy is look at some of the information we have about Druitt and Tumblety and try to work out whether one or both may have been connected to this alleged belief of Macnaghten"s "that the Ripper was linked to an assassination plot to kill Balfour".
Macnaghten suggested that 29 year old Druitt was sexually insane and probably was the Ripper.We know that Druitt was an unmarried, upper middle class, English gentleman, sacked in November 1888 from an all boys private boarding school because he was "in serious trouble" but we dont know what the" trouble" was ?---Is it such a stretch to think it may have had to do with a predilection for young boys?

Apart from these few bits and pieces we know of nothing to connect him to the murders.Neither is there anything about his family that would appear to suggest he would be all that interested in "Irish Troubles"----but you never know---he may have been.I believe his sister,married a catholic and this from an otherwise staunchly protestant family.
Littlechild believed Tumblety to be a "very likely suspect"- this was a man from a very different background to Druitt.And Tumblety apparently had Fenian sympathies . RJ Palmer recently highlighted the fact that Tumblety came from a very poor immigrant Irish family which emigrated to America when he was quite young .He appears to have been from a catholic family,homosexual and to have visited London on a number of occasions.You cant help wondering what brought him over so often!
It occurred to me too that London itself was once a kind of " Centre for Disembowelling" where in the 16th and 17th centuries both Catholics and Protestants were regularly "disembowelled " in the streets ,after executions --it was called being" hung, drawn and quartered" and was practised by one or the other, depending on the religious persuasion of the current monarch.Goodness knows what ideas this could have given to the Ripper, if he was driven by some wild vengeance to do with the land of his birth !
Best
Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee8th January 2008, 06:07 PM
Hi all,

I am wondering, are we all in agreement that if Macnaughten had seen documents that he claimed connected the Ripper with the leader of an assasination plot against Balfour, then he must have seen documents that connected Druitt to such a person or plot?

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn10th January 2008, 12:47 AM
Hi Brad,
I dont think Macnaghten saw any papers himself.In the 1950"s the author Douglas Browne,whilst writing his history of Scotland Yard,apparently saw official information that Macnaghten actually identified the Ripper with" The Leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office".
In Days of My Years he wrote, "I incline to the belief that the individual who held London in terror resided with his own people: that he absented himself from home at certain times,and that he committed suicide on or about the 10th of November 1888,after he knocked out a Commissioner of Police and very nearly settled the hash of one of Her Majesty"s principal Secretaries of State".
This is quoted from ,"Jack the Ripper, First American Serial Killer" by Stewart Evans and Paul Gainey.
Brad, the Commissioner referred to was either Warren or Monro and the principal Secretary of State must have been Arthur Balfour who was Conservative Chief Secretary for
Ireland.He is said to have been particularly targeted because he was the originator of the "shoot to kill" policy.

Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee10th January 2008, 01:29 AM
Hi Brad,
I dont think Macnaghten saw any papers himself.In the 1950"s the author Douglas Browne,whilst writing his history of Scotland Yard,apparently saw official information that Macnaghten actually identified the Ripper with" The Leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office".

Natalie

Hi Natalie,

Thanks for the information. Well, If Macnaughten had identified the Ripper with the leader of a plot against Balfour at the Irish office then, do you think it is probable that he Identified Druitt with such a plot.

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn10th January 2008, 07:08 PM
Hi Brad,
Well it seems likely.I mean if he knew things about Druitt that led him to believe he most probably was the Ripper and he believed The Ripper was the leader of a plot to assassinate Balfour, then he must have believed Druitt to have been a Nationalist sympathiser.
But I do have some trouble squaring this one up.Druitt could have had such sympathies, there are areas of his life about which we know nothing for example the year he came down from Oxford, 1880.Its possible he was engaged in some political activities then,through people he had known at Oxford. We may need to look up who was at Oxford in 1880---any links---
Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee10th January 2008, 08:10 PM
Hi Brad,
Well it seems likely.I mean if he knew things about Druitt that led him to believe he most probably was the Ripper and he believed The Ripper was the leader of a plot to assassinate Balfour, then he must have believed Druitt to have been a Nationalist sympathiser.
Natalie

Hi Natalie,

Thanks for your responce on this subject. I am still unclear. Did Macnaughten connect Druitt to a person who was the leader of the plot against Balfour or did he mean Druitt was the leader of the plot?

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dougie10th January 2008, 08:52 PM
All I am trying to do here Andy is look at some that London itself was once a kind of " Centre for Disembowelling" where in the 16th and 17th centuries both Catholics and Protestants were regularly "disembowelled " in the streets ,after executions --it was called being" hung, drawn and quartered" and was practised by one or the other, depending on the religious persuasion of the current monarch.Goodness knows what ideas this could have given to the Ripper, if he was driven by some wild vengeance to do with the land of his birth !
Best
Natalie
I wouldnt have thought that london was exactly a "centre" for disembowelling, it was as far as i understand a punishment meted out to traitors among st others,it wasnt neccessaruilly realated to the victims religion and not exclusively practised in london. william wallace was one such "traitor" who suffered that fate,in i believe stirling scotland(might be wrong there).his crime wasnt being a catholic(or a protestant.) technically this ritual wasnt practised "after " the execution...it was part of it. the traitor would be half hung,cut down while alive,then mutilated......i think its stretching it a bit(excuse the pun) to attribute that to being a motivation for jtr s crimes.if the ripper was irish,he might just as likely been motivated by oliver cromwells slaughter of irish families at the "bull ring" in wexford some centuries before.
but did/does anyone take the ripper connection to the fenian plot seriously ? and why on earth would an irish terrorist with plainly terrorist motivations waste his time killing east end prostitutes? to discredit the english government? seems rather ludicrous to me.
regards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn10th January 2008, 11:14 PM
No London wasnt "a centre for disembowelling"----that was just a figure of speech, dougie.But in the 15th and 16th centuries it seemed to happen quite a lot in England.I dont think other countries practised this particular tortuous type of state killing-not to the same extent ----but they certainly practised other forms of torture every bit as horrific!
I dont know what the links are dougie to the Fenians-but there seems to have been something going on.
There were different factions amongst Fenians, often fighting amongst themselves about tactics and the way forward.Its well known they paid men and women they knew from drinking in pubs with them to pass messages for them.So if any of the victims did this and later "talked"-----they would probably be in for at the very least a bit of knee-capping! ! ! and if say it was serious "double crossing" any of them may have been involved in then yes, I can see that sort of "punishment" happening.After all we see "beheadings" as "warnings" on TV news dont we? Often those beheaded have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time but the deaths are often quite horrific.The punishment is more of a "warning" to others than to punish the individual hostage.
Anyway I am not particularly looking at just the Fenians.There were also "agents provocateur"who were part of this warfare.It could have been someone like that going becoming very unstable and going "over the top"!

Brad,
I dont know the answer to that----its not clear.

Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee11th January 2008, 12:59 AM
Hi Natalie,

I think it is more likely that Macnaughten had connected Druitt with a person who was a leader or the police thought was a leader of an assasination plot against Balfour. Tumblety?

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dougie11th January 2008, 01:04 AM
natalie,
yes ,i didnt think of the "warning " motive,but i guess then there would have to be found some kind of link between kelly,stride and company and the fenian cause,or something of that sort ..if there was..... but to me anyway the ripper was a man who loved his trade.i think he did it for fun,i doubt whether he had a political motive for doing it...but thats merely my view..who knows?
regards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn11th January 2008, 01:08 AM
Yes Brad,that sounds more likely I must admit.We need to keep delving into it really.Things do crop up that throw light on such puzzles sometimes.
Cheers
Natalie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee11th January 2008, 07:00 PM
Hi,

Another thing that I have been wondering is, could the plot against Balfour be the Political "hot potato" that Monro spoke of? The private information that Macnaughten recieved I believe came from Monro. Could the evidence that implicated Druitt to the Ripper murders some how be intwind with the Balfour plot?

Is it possible that in order to expose Druitt as the Ripper they also would have to reveal the plot against Balfour?

Is it possible that the plot against Balfour involved men of high standing and Monro did not wish to expose them as conspirators?

Is it possible that Druitt's involvement with someone who had been connected with the plot against Balfour have been the reason for Macnaughten suspecting that he was involved with the Ripper murders.?


Could that person have been Tumblety?

Tumblety's name was kept out of the London papers. Did Monro fear that if Tumblety's name apeared in the papers that some would ask questions and the plot against Balfour and those involved would get exposed.?

With Tumblety's name being splashed all over the US papers it is odd that he did not apear once in the Britsh press. Is it possible that the men who ran the papers also may have had an interest in keeping the plot against Balfour from going puplic? Were they protecting those Who may have been involved with such a plot?

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natalie Severn11th January 2008, 11:50 PM
Hi Brad,
Interesting questions to which we at present have no answer.

A couple of years ago a book about the Irish poet Yeats drew attention to the Irish Nationalists and Intellectuals such as Oscar Wilde who met in Hammersmith,sometimes at the house of George Bernard Shaw in Hammersmith, sometimes it appears at the house of William Morris living nearby and also by the spot in the river where Druitt was found drowned. William Morris was at the time wearing his Anarchist,poet and hand dying hats and was very sympathetic indeed to the cause of Irish Nationalism.Like Bernard Shaw ,William Morris lived close to the river in Hammersmith and gave speeches regularly at the IWEA Berner Street Club.
Yeats was madly in love with the passionately beautiful Irish Nationalist ,Maud Gonne, who herself was mad about Parnell and devastated when he lost the Home Rule struggle. She was also apparently a visitor to both their houses .......and this is where it may be getting interesting.In a footnote of Fenian Fire-page 310, we find that this very same lady, Maud Gonne, had met Michael Davitt in Paris early in October 1888-Davitt being Parnell"s "intelligence man" at The Special Commission.Now later on ,Davitt"s speeches happen to have been advertised on the gate of The Berner Street Club [ 1891] , where Elizabeth Stride was found murdered in 1888-[no implication here that Davitt was involved in her death-just that the club may have been "targeted" for some reason].
Anywayin October 1888 Davitt had been meeting up with Edward Jenkinson in Paris to swap information. Maud had told Davitt she was there to "serve our dear country" but since Maud was also the daughter of the British Military attache in St Petersburg ,Davitt was a bit suspicious and thought Maud "to be part of a Times Plot".[unlikely actally-she seems to have definitely switched sides].

The links between Hammersmith political houses and the IWEA Berner street Club could be of some significance--as both places entertained sypathisers with Irish Nationalism.
Funny too how quite a few of these people seem to swim around the same pools - Edward Jenkinson,Michael Davitt,Maud Gonne,---even Anderson all in Paris at the very same time!--Millen in Boulogne, Inspector Melville [the original "M"] keeping port watch on all of them in Le Havre.
I can see Tumblety swimming around in that pool somehow in Paris or Le Havre----whether Druitt was also off to dip his toe into a bit of political intrigue and headed to one of these pro-Irish Republican Hammersmith houses on December 1st is yet another matter- he probably went to "the Osiers" instead to join the Apostles----


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aspallek12th January 2008, 07:10 AM
Andy,

The Druitt as homosexual belief stems from his dismissal as a teacher. I don't think untoward behavior with the students would be something that would allow him to stay on until the end of term. Yet, you know this already.

I'm sorry, Mike, but this is just not true. Nothing about Druitt's dismissal or "serious trouble" would suggest homosexuality were it not for the "sexually insane" comment. However, when I researched the phrase "sexually insane" I had great difficulty finding instances of this referring to homosexuality. However, Macnaghten does refer to the killer as a "sexual maniac" and this I believe is the key. Sexual mania includes homicidal tendencies believed to be induced by sexual passion. I believe Macnaghten's use of "sexually insane" and "sexual maniac" are synonymous.

Nats --

No, it's not a stretch to consider the possibility that Druitt was a homosexual. There is just no evidence to suggest it. It is also not much of a stretch to consider the possibility that Druitt had Irish Nationalist leanings, though I would say it is unlikely. Nonetheless, a potential connection between Tumblety and Druitt is most definitely worth exploring.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

baron12th January 2008, 09:18 AM
Andy,

You misunderstand me, I think. I agree with you that there is no real evidence that he was gay. I was referring to what the general argument has been; that he was dismissed because of some homosexual activity. I don't buy the argument, as I too, have not seen documented evidence of this. "Sexually Insane" could mean anything, in my mind, and it could be something as simple as masturbatory habits according to Victorian mores.

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Celee12th January 2008, 05:54 PM
Hi,

If Macnaughten claimed to connect the Ripper with the leader of an assasination plot against Balfour and Monro did tell his son that the Ripper case was a political "hot potato", then it is not a stretch to believe that the "hot potato" was the plot against Balfour.

Monro's statment, if he made such a claim, leads me to believe that had the Ripper been brought to justice that it would have opened up a political crisis. If this is the case, then what ever evidence Monro had involving Druitt with the murders must have been connected with the plot against Balfour.

I think that it is likely that Macnaughten had connected Druitt with a person who was involved in an assasination plot against Balfour. Druitt may not have been invovled in the plot at all. If this was the case, then Druitt's connection with such a person may have also connected him with the Ripper murders. Two men working together? It would be the only thing that makes sence to me. I mean if Druitt was working alone. The police could have came out and said, "Hey Druitt was the killer, he killed himself and it is over". The police would not even have to mention any plot against Balfour. Druitt was dead, no trial, no situation. However if there was someone else involved a person that was still alive and someone who would have to stand trial [Tumblety] then the Balfour assasination plot would have to be told. Probably implicating some power players.

Your friend, Brad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aspallek13th January 2008, 04:00 AM
Yes, Mike, I apparently did misunderstand your position. Thanks for the clarification.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vBulletin v3.6.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

(From http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk)